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Posted 10/12/2012 7:54 PM (GMT 0)
Hey I injured myself bodybuilding 6 months ago. There was no immediate snapping or anything. I have been to 4 physios and 2 chiros. The condition has not gotten any better. I have gotten many thoughts on what it is but I believe it is Slipping Rib Syndrome. Where the rib slips loose from a damaged ligament that wont heal. The answer is prolotherapy.

I have found 2 doctors that are versed in Prolotherapy but I am unaware which to choose:


Im from London Ontario Canada (near Toronto). Doctor is in Chicago which is a 7hr drive from where I live. Called in his receptionist was well aware of my condition and acted like it was no big deal. Ross has youtube videos on prolotherapy, Articles, trained with the best in the world. Dude seems like an absolute Pro at this.

Ill need 2-4 Treatments. 4-6 weeks apart. Somewhere between 400$-700$ per treatment, most likely 700$.

Total Cost: Between $1600-3000$: Can start in November



Doctor is in my city of London, Ontario Canada. Called his receptionist, she had to ask someone else about my condition. Seemed unaware. But once I explained I needed Prolotherapy she mentioned a patient having similar issues she remembers. Claims doctor is very well versed in prolotherapy and uses an advanced Prolotherapy called Prolozone. Which seems to just have an addition of Ozone to the solution.

Ill need 2-4 Treatments as well. 2-4 weeks apart. Somewhere between 90$-180$ per treatment.

Total Cost: Between $360-720$: Can start in Decemeber.

So im not sure who'm too choose here.

Guy A: seems way more reputable and seems like an absolute pro but is 7hrs away and costs 4x more.

Guy B: lives in my hometown but there isnt a lot of info on him so I cant tell how good he is. And im unaware how "Pro" a doctor needs to be for Prolotherapy. Its not exactly heart surgery but who knows.

Any Advice Fellas? Im 20yrs old and bodybuilding is my life so I defenetely need my back back to 100%. Money is obviously a concern but you can put a price on your life here.

Hello, I have gone in edited out the names & email addresses of the drs you listed as the owner/administrator prefers that we do not list this kind of info here at the forum.

Post Edited By Moderator (straydog) : 10/12/2012 3:22:13 PM (GMT-6)
Posted 10/12/2012 8:19 PM (GMT 0)
To me and I had one session of prolotherapy, is that it's a big sham, scam...I never went back to that doctor .
It is expensive and insurance will not cover this so make sure you have the money. $400. per session sounds about right.
Maybe see out another doctor a pain management doctor and get another opinion. Might be worth getting another opinion.
Many well wishes...
Posted 10/12/2012 9:32 PM (GMT 0)
That sounds like a very expensive treatment to have without a definitive diagnosis from a good md. There are too many possible conditions in the abdomen that could present as possible rib pain. I would personally want to get checked by a real doctor, especially being a former body builder myself, you can develope a muscle adhesion or something, from lifting heavy weights, which in my case caused a bowel obstruction. Definitely get checked by a real doctor, a chiro and a physio dont have the medical training to recognize all the possible conditions that can randomly present with heavy weight lifting. You need to make sure you're treating and hopefully allowing whatever the problem is to heal, and not just jury rigging your body to buy you one or two more seasons.

Trust me, I'm 28, and will never be able to lift again because I went to the chiros first, instead of finding out what the real problems were. You don't want to end up like this.
Posted 10/12/2012 9:36 PM (GMT 0)

2y4t said...
That sounds like a very expensive treatment to have without a definitive diagnosis from a good md. There are too many possible conditions in the abdomen that could present as possible rib pain. I would personally want to get checked by a real doctor, especially being a former body builder myself, you can develope a muscle adhesion or something, from lifting heavy weights, which in my case caused a bowel obstruction. Definitely get checked by a real doctor, a chiro and a physio dont have the medical training to recognize all the possible conditions that can randomly present with heavy weight lifting. You need to make sure you're treating and hopefully allowing whatever the problem is to heal, and not just jury rigging your body to buy you one or two more seasons.

The prolotherapy have consultations where they assess you. In terms of a doctor? What doctor? Where are these doctors that assess your problems? A family doctor doesnt know crap. I have had an xray, and mri and a ultrasound all negative.
Posted 10/12/2012 9:52 PM (GMT 0)
Negative scans can be a good thing, I can certainly understand your frustration with a family doctor, the point I was trying to make is that other possible issues should be ruled out. It sounds like that has happened. I'm not familiar with the type of therapy that you are going in for, I was merely expressing concern that other possible underlying problems may not have been addressed. I always say better safe than sorry. I hope your treatment works for you, and hopefully you'll figure out which clinic you want to use. Good luck.
Posted 10/12/2012 10:07 PM (GMT 0)
Hi there...welcome to the boards..

I'm a bit confused on why you would go for this therapy if you are saying all your tests are coming out negative...What type of "injury" do you have then that is diagnosed?

Any type of torn ligament or tendon injury would show up on a MRI...

I would recommend seeing an actual Orthopedic or Neurosurgeon before I would spend so much money on something that is not really recognized as a first line of treatment.

It's not that I don't believe you have pain...I'm just saying that there is no way I would go get this type of treatment without having a definitive diagnosis and having tried all the regular ways to treat the pain first.

Post Edited (Snowbunny21) : 10/12/2012 4:42:26 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 10/12/2012 10:38 PM (GMT 0)
I have 3 chronic slipping ribs, and there's no way I would go chiro or prolo for it. They can't cure it. My ribs slip at my side toward the front of the curve. They were fractured by seat belt in an accident. I can feel the upper ones slipping over the lower ones. Grinding.

I've had relief from thoracic level spinal injections to stop the nerves from sending pain messages. The last injection though, did not help. I had one set of injections right over the ribs that did nothing for the pain. I can have nerve ablation in the OR, but the chance of getting a lung puncture is 10%. This is a pretty high conmplication rate. It can happen weeks after getting the procedure, and there's no guarantee the ablation will work and probably will not be permanent.

My best treatment is avoiding twisting and not bending bending toward that side. The pain eventually lessens, maybe because I'm used to it now.
Posted 10/12/2012 11:08 PM (GMT 0)

Snowbunny21 said...
Hi there...welcome to the boards..

I'm a bit confused on why you would go for this therapy if you are saying all your tests are coming out negative...What type of "injury" do you have then that is diagnosed?

Any type of torn ligament or tendon injury would show up on a MRI... False

I would recommend seeing an actual Orthopedic or Neurosurgeon before I would spend so much money on something that is not really recognized as a first line of treatment.

What would an orthopedic or neursurgeon be able to do for me? I mean would they not just say go get an MRI. Which ive already done? What could they do?

It's not that I don't believe you have pain...I'm just saying that there is no way I would go get this type of treatment without having a definitive diagnosis and having tried all the regular ways to treat the pain first.

Posted 10/12/2012 11:09 PM (GMT 0)

Alcie said...
I have 3 chronic slipping ribs, and there's no way I would go chiro or prolo for it. They can't cure it. My ribs slip at my side toward the front of the curve. They were fractured by seat belt in an accident. I can feel the upper ones slipping over the lower ones. Grinding.

I've had relief from thoracic level spinal injections to stop the nerves from sending pain messages. The last injection though, did not help. I had one set of injections right over the ribs that did nothing for the pain. I can have nerve ablation in the OR, but the chance of getting a lung puncture is 10%. This is a pretty high conmplication rate. It can happen weeks after getting the procedure, and there's no guarantee the ablation will work and probably will not be permanent.

My best treatment is avoiding twisting and not bending bending toward that side. The pain eventually lessens, maybe because I'm used to it now.

Ridiculous. I wont give up and just bear it. I need to workout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k9TKCYoMgQ
Posted 10/13/2012 12:30 AM (GMT 0)
Most all tendon or ligament injuries do show up on MRIs. Those are the main issues that Prolotherapy treats. But again, it's not really a mainstream treatment and I, personally, would never pay that amount for something like this but your choice.

An Orthopedic or Neurosurgeon are the types of Drs. who diagnose and treat those types of issues. Once they figure out what is going on, then they come up with a comprehensive plan to help you recover. From physical therapy, ultrasound massage, injections, medication, etc.

You still don't mention what your actual diagnoses is and what type of Dr. did this?

Certainly your choice on what to do but you asked for our opinions and we are giving them:)
Posted 10/13/2012 12:37 AM (GMT 0)
I would go see a thoracic doctor. They deal with chest area problems all the time.

Take care,
Bill
Posted 10/13/2012 12:46 AM (GMT 0)
SlippedRib,
We are just trying to help you. Please think about seeing a Neurologists or a Pain Management doctor's. Maybe getting more testing done,
Have you had any contrast MRI's as a contrast MRI may show more damage, and it would save your money. Sometimes these doctor
and even some Chiro's are only after money and not there for their patients. However there are some good Chiro's out there, just
consider seeking out another opinion, also think hard on why insurance will not cover this...and maybe ask someone like me, that has had this done
and I caution you not to do this, at least until you've gotten a second opinion.
Posted 10/13/2012 3:23 AM (GMT 0)

Snowbunny21 said...
Most all tendon or ligament injuries do show up on MRIs. Those are the main issues that Prolotherapy treats. But again, it's not really a mainstream treatment and I, personally, would never pay that amount for something like this but your choice.

An Orthopedic or Neurosurgeon are the types of Drs. who diagnose and treat those types of issues. Once they figure out what is going on, then they come up with a comprehensive plan to help you recover. From physical therapy, ultrasound massage, injections, medication, etc.

You still don't mention what your actual diagnoses is and what type of Dr. did this?

Certainly your choice on what to do but you asked for our opinions and we are giving them:)

I have never been diagnosed. After an Ultrasound, and MRI and an Xray no one knows. Ive been to 1 mediocore and 3 well versed sports injury physios. And 2 chiros, a 2 family doctors and a massage therapist. One thought it was a slipped rib, second thought it was a slipped rib, and some muscle damage and a trigger point. Third thought it was both. And the chiro thought it was muscle.

I however am pretty positive its a trigger point and a slipping rib. Pain in side, back, chest. Pain when breathing in heavy. Feels better when I sit perfectly erect for a while or whilst walking. Back clicks when shoulders roll everytime. And theres a spot where the muscle is very tender (the trigger point) above all this.

Im in Canada. Im unaware what a neurosurgeon can do but I have a feeling it would be a 2 year wait list for these guys. Plus what is he gonna be able to "see" that others cant. Im all for a seventh opinion but I dont even know where to find a neurosurgeon or orthopedic.
Posted 10/13/2012 3:24 AM (GMT 0)

Chartreux said...
SlippedRib,
We are just trying to help you. Please think about seeing a Neurologists or a Pain Management doctor's. Maybe getting more testing done,
Have you had any contrast MRI's as a contrast MRI may show more damage, and it would save your money. Sometimes these doctor
and even some Chiro's are only after money and not there for their patients. However there are some good Chiro's out there, just
consider seeking out another opinion, also think hard on why insurance will not cover this...and maybe ask someone like me, that has had this done
and I caution you not to do this, at least until you've gotten a second opinion.

What is wrong with prolo?
Posted 10/13/2012 3:58 AM (GMT 0)
Strapped to a table, getting injections hurts like hell, no really good positive stories out there on these and
I also had a very bad allergic response which came very close to going to the ER, and ultimately the prolotherapy
made everything worse for me, including extra pain that I have now was exuberated and my life forever at least
for now made worse by prolotherapy. If I could go back thru time I'd never had it done at all. Granted you might not have the
allergic responses, but all in all, seek out more info on these before under going this procedure. At least talk to in person
someone that's had a good outcome from this, ask that person what their pain was before and after....
Read back thru older postings on these... Also remember if you move during any of this you could get your spine
nicked and X-ray guidances is not used, so I do consider this extremely dangerous in that regards.
Posted 10/13/2012 7:07 PM (GMT 0)
I hate to say it, and my arthritic typing hands (speech recognition isn't an option at the moment because there's too much background noise here) aren't up to forming the entire argument.....but everything I have ever learned about prolo is to stay the h-e-double hockey sticks away from it.

I know no small number of people like you that have gotten desperate enough to try it and never ONCE heard about positive results, while having heard many horror stories. It sounds almost sensible on paper and a doc may sound like he knows what he's doing in YouTube videos, but docs like to pretend that their failure rates don't exist. Docs are terrified of admitting failure, mainly because they tend to do a LOT of it in general. Particularly when it comes to chronic pain of any kind.

I have been where you are now.....determined to find a solution, and just about willing to go to the ends of the earth and bankrupt myself to get back to health.

I'm not suggesting you just lay down and accept a sedentary life, although a lot of people with more serious/debilitating conditions than yours have eventually had to do so after decades of struggling with doctors who just won't admit they don't know what the #@$%#$% they're doing.

I'm 12 years further down this road than you -- and by all means I hope you don't have to travel much further down it, one way or another -- than you are. But if I were you, I would listen to the advice you have been given in this thread by people who have jumped through more hoops than you can possibly imagine in dealing with the medical INDUSTRY.

Remember that word: INDUSTRY. It's important. 98% of doctors' offices/hospitals/clinics etc are fundamentally about MONEY, not healing (and the other 2% are just nicer about it). It's a BUSINESS. Don't get sucked in by people selling hope that leads nowhere. I almost bankrupted my family trying to get better and function, and it got me exactly nowhere.

I have scoured the ends of the earth searching for an actual solution to my multiple severe chronic pain conditions (even just one of the three major ones would make a world of difference for me), and the truth is....not everyone can be fixed. Medical science is not as advanced as we'd like to pretend it is....and most doctors are DECADES behind on that science. They don't keep up with the latest research, they don't put time and effort into understanding complex/unusual cases -- which unfortunately it sounds like there is a decent chance yours has become.

All I'm really trying to say here is, there is a balance that has to be struck between acceptance and hope when it comes to these things. Too much of one or the other and you will find yourself in a world of trouble -- not to mention hurt.

Good luck. If you want my two cents, as I said at the outset, avoid prolotherapy like the PLAGUE.
Posted 10/14/2012 1:48 PM (GMT 0)
Maybe ridiculous, but I've searched the serious medical literature for a cure for 3 years.

I've seen 4 MDs for my slipped ribs, real docs who've seen these before, and they all agree that other than nerve ablation, there's nothing but removing the ribs to stop the slipping. I'm not willing to have that extensive surgery or take a high risk of lung puncture.

The pain lessens over time if the ribs are not abused. Spinal injections, which don't hurt me much at all, have stopped the pain for long periods of time until the tissues stopped being inflamed and hurting so much. It's still there, but it's tolerable.

I work out. I just avoid motion that aggravates the ribs.
Posted 10/15/2012 9:34 PM (GMT 0)
Slipped Rib: Sorry you have pain and are considering prolotherapy. My doctor is in the northern suburbs of Chicago and she does prolotherapy in her office. She also teaches the technique to other doctors. Before she became a doctor she was a nurse for 18 years. In other words, she is able to explain things very well. She is not as rough as the doc in the Youtube videos.

The doctor's husband is a chiropractor currently going to Canadian College of Osteopathy in London, Ontario. I have a hard time figuring out why you are unable to find a DO when there is a college right there.

http://www.osteopathy-canada.com/

150 Bridgeland, Suite 102
Toronto ONTARIO M6A 1Z5
Google map location
From the Toronto area (416) 597-0367
Outside of Toronto (877) 893-0367
Posted 10/18/2012 4:41 AM (GMT 0)
I just wanted to let you know I had three rounds of Prolotherapy on my neck...

I was getting them 4 weeks apart... I was scheduled for a 4th round and was at the surgical center on a table with an IV in my arm and someone came in to tell me my insurance would not cover it....

Way to tell me as I was ready to be wheeled in...

Each one of my treatments costed around $30K each... I was put under sedation due to getting 25-30 injections at one time

With the three rounds I did have... I couldn't tell any difference... for me it did not work at all...

I hope things work out for you whatever you decide to do... I exhausted every single avenue to put off surgery as long as I could... I tried things for just about 3 years and then had no choice

Best of luck
Posted 4/29/2013 12:13 AM (GMT 0)
I contacted a clinic in Chicago (caring medical). The prolotherapy includes stem cell injections. The cost is as you noted. I found one "doctor" in Toronto who claims to have the MD, DC (chiropractic) AND ND (naturopathic) degrees, the latter two from a university I've never heard of. There were no listings for the MD training (perhaps he trained at St. Nowhere?)and he is not listed on the Ontario College of Physicians and Surgeons website as a licensed physician. There do not seem to be any MDs in Ontario who are using stem cells (there are many un the US); however, there are registered Naturopathic docs doing prolotherapy, in Ontario, without the stem cell component I'm looking for. I'm also looking for board certified docs from the Canadian Chiropractic College and/or the Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine
Posted 4/29/2013 1:10 AM (GMT 0)
Hello Cattys, please note that you have posted on a thread that is nearly 3 years old with no current activity. I suggest that you start a new thread so everyone will see it & perhaps some others will have some input. Take care....Susie
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