Experimental disease in infant goats induced by a Mycobacterium isolated from a patient with Crohn's

Just going to post this here as well for those who have heard about it but not read it:

I heard about it but could never find the actual study until just going trough the papers on the Crohn's MAP vaccine website.

Experimental disease in infant goats induced by a Mycobacterium isolated from a patient with Crohn's disease. A preliminary report.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Experimental+disease+in+infant+goats+induced+by+a+Mycobacterium+isolated+from+a+patient+with+Crohn's+disease.+A+preliminary+report.

So now there is a paper where they isolate MAP from a Crohn's patient, put it in an animal and the animal develops disease as well. And we have an experiment where they isolate MAP from a patient, transfer it to a mouse with human intestinal tissue grafted and the human tissue develops this disease...................................


This paper is under the updated research section at www.crohnsmapvaccine.com

There is NEVER any reason to instill disease, pain, and any kind of harm to animals for the purpose of making humans well...I have had two friends brought back to health with mostly natural or alternative changes...and no baby goats were put through misery.

@abming - Hahaha, that was actually a pretty funny response.

Yes it's from 1986 and FYI - It's not a real traditional study and was never intended to be...

It's from a researcher who wanted to test if it was even plausible. Could he infect an animal with a MAP bacteria isolated from a human and would this result in the development of disease in the animal??? That was the point of the study.

The answer is/was an obvious yes.

More so this little experiment has then led to multiple studies and some 28 years of currently ongoing research into Paratuburculosis both in humans, in animals, and into the genetics of mycobacteria by the authors, most recently published a few months ago.

And yes - Exactly like humans they were visually free of acid-fast bacilli. You say this like it's a bad thing - but this is in fact the results one would look for. As for why???? .... well I won't fill that in just yet - since you seem to know everything "in your opinion" I'll let you try to answer it..... Hint - it's really quite easy based on TB and other similar bacteria. I don't post much on the chohn's board for some goofy reason considering Crohns-Colitis is what I have, but I'll make a point to come back and fill ya in if you haven't figured it out yet.

Anyways... As I said, this is the first, there is another more recent with human tissue in mice. Upon oral inoculation with MAP the same thing develops. So yes, there is in fact a very large and growing body of evidence not only suggesting, BUT directly demonstrating the ability of MAP to cause disease. Specifically Crohn's Disease.

Also, not that it maters much but I don't think you know what "Linda" strain is - or more correctly refers to. As well I don't think you know that MAP is not an "Opportunistic Bacteria" Neither is Tuberculosis dude...

As for others. visit the website www.crohnsmap.vaccine and go to the research section.

Post Edited (Canada Mark) : 10/15/2014 12:25:57 AM (GMT-6)

Let's be nice and keep an open mind. He was attacked for his beliefs that there is a possibility for understanding more about this disease. You are each entitled to your own beliefs without being harsh.

Mark, I appreciate you toning down your responses.
Always happy to discuss things in a rational way.

You state boldly that you “have not made any errors...” - it is often hard to discuss things with people who assert that position.

As you would of course know, MAP is a causative agent in the often fatal Johne's Disease (para-tuberculosis) that affects cattle, sheep and goats. It is therefore, unremarkable that MAP cultures taken from humans may cause disease in ruminants.
That does not automatically make the corollary true (that ruminant strains would cause disease in humans.) That conclusion remains speculative, and contentious to this day.
Even if tissue colonization and histological lesions are seen, clinical disease in response to MAP infection has not been reported for non-ruminant species, other than rabbits.

The assumption that if a lesion 'resembles' one found in diseased cattle, therefore means it has a similar etiology, is deeply flawed. (It is like assuming a scraped knee is caused by gunshot because the wound looks similar.)

A cellular immune response to MAP has not yet been documented in Crohn’s disease patients. This is despite any increased serological responses to MAP antigens that may been seen in those same patients.
It is a matter which is easily confused.

If I may - the term 'isolate' is used in place of 'strain' if it is considered unknown. MAP isolates from humans are thought to cluster with the bovine strains. However, a complete sequence of an isolate from humans has not yet been available. Human strain sequences remain in draft form.

Consider that 80% of all bacteria within the human gut are unknown and/or uncultivable. The choice of MAP as a causative agent for IBD would therefore seem presumptive. Its mere presence, even at increased levels in ileal specimens of patients, does not in any way indicate causality.
When increasingly convoluted notions have to be used to explain the many issues which make a theory unlikely to be true, it is indicative of the problems being encountered.

I say again, there is not yet evidence of any MAP isolates causing any disease (as opposed to damage) in humans, and it is truly a mistake to extrapolate that data.

Mark, I admire and respect your zeal for finding a causative agent, and I too believe one exists, and will be found in time. It is why I am tough on improper science.

Take care.

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.... No I did not "Tone down my response" you ambling... So don't thank me dude. FYI - it was meant to be offensive to you because of your tone and similar type response to many other discussions and people on here.

And once again no I have not made any errors. This I am sure of.

------------------

And come on now... I'm sure you can do better than cut and paste someone else's arguments against MAP.... I mean literally highlight your sentences and google them. That's hilarious.

So Amblimg.... You're not "Tough on incomplete science" at all dude.... YOU physically and mentally just demonstrated exactly what incomplete science and incomplete thought is...

I needed a laugh - so I do thank you this time for that!

To funny dude.

Post Edited (Canada Mark) : 10/15/2014 8:03:37 PM (GMT-6)

Shoot.... one more thing ambling...

You misread the paper you so eloquently highlighted and pressed copy and paste in regards to the isolate dude....


I suggest your read it again :)

I appreciate you toning down your responses mr chemical engineer.

Highlight and google, then read the study you cut and pasted from again. Might be beneficial to you.

Ha, the late night drama of the IBD forms - always good entertainment.

Yes NCOT that dude get's me totally cranked! More so from his/her? full on copy and paste responses to the majority of his comments on other threads.

As pointed out there is quite a bit of evidence both currently and coming down the pipeline of cause and effect. Number 1 again being the isolation of MAP from humans, and subsequent inoculation of the isolated strain into mice with human intestinal tissue graft causing disease.


At the end of the day though, there's only one thing that will give us the answer for sure, the trial of the vaccine. Which is actually getting very close to reality now. So time will tell. An end to it one way or the other would be welcome and give focus.

Ambling said...
Even if tissue colonization and histological lesions are seen, clinical disease in response to MAP infection has not been reported for non-ruminant species, other than rabbits.

FYI - Dude...

Here - This one case of non-ruminant MAP infection that you say does NOT exist......... Which is just one of many natural AND experimental cases now available, as it also clearly states in this and many other papers.

Paratuberculosis in a mandrill (Papio sphinx). www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12152813


I'm not intolerant to anyone with an alternative view - I am intolerant to someone coming on and posting a long winded attack claiming there they have vast knowledge due to being a so called "chemical engineer" with 20 years experience, yet quoting, copying and pasting certain papers almost word for word and claiming it to be your own knowledge. And you do this on many others people's posts as well.

So yes, apart from the now many cases of non-reumainant MAP being diagnosed, and the formation of some some new specialized zoonotic groups in Germany now focused specifically at addressing the growing concerns and spread of MAP between species your comment's are not so much offensive to me, but to those many who have now dedicated their career's to studying this issue. You directly insult their intelligence.

You can keep claiming there is zero evidence out of sheer laziness to properly research, or you can actually re-search and you'll find it.................

I can keep pointing out and correcting your mistakes if you'd like... I'm far from cornered here dude...

Post Edited (Canada Mark) : 10/16/2014 1:55:31 AM (GMT-6)

No ambling...

You started your initial response attack with a very firm statement claiming there is NO evidence of MAP infection causing disease in NON-Ruminants. And were very adamant that this is the case......


I simply provided proof that this is not correct on your part as you can see with a quick read. As mentioned I can continue through the rest of your errors if you'd like....

Ambling,

I get "cranked" because you try and speak down to people and use statements like this - Quote "It is why I am tough on improper science." Come on now... that's a joke I assume.

As for CHOP - read for yourself: In "Non-inflammed tissue" or unaffected mucosa in UC patients there is reduced expression of CHOP download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/0016-5085/PIIS0016508511006986.pdf -

ambling said...
Even if tissue colonization and histological lesions are seen, clinical disease in response to MAP infection has not been reported for non-ruminant species, other than rabbits.

Yeah, but you forgot the mandrill, ffs. That's very important. Never forget the poor mandrill who sacrificed its life so that CM could fit the missing piece into the jigsaw puzzle.