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Posted 7/25/2007 6:20 AM (GMT 0)
It's been so long since i've been obese that i can't remember when! :( my life has always been full of sadness and distress and i've always found comfort with food... eating and eating has been my sole comfort... and now at 28, it seems like i'm the only one in my family to be obese + i have diabetes for eating too much sugary snacks i think... I've found that there is a medicine that can heal obesity.. it's called (site link removed) What do you think? has anyone ever used (product name removed) for health problems?
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nono THIS SITE IS NOT FOR SPAM ADVERTISING!
If you really have diabetes you should know that you can't get it from eating sugary snacks. Diabetes is an hereditary metabolic disorder that is influenced by lifestyle, daily exercise and food plan. No one can give themselves diabetes by eating too much sugar.

Post Edited By Moderator (Jeannie143) : 7/25/2007 11:33:31 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 7/25/2007 10:26 AM (GMT 0)
Being obese can cause type 2 diabetes,also heart problems,lose eyesight,high blood pressure,kidney problems,amputations. It just depends on how bad you want to live.Yes in some cases if you lose weight things get better less meds for it.Sugar does not cause it.My hubby has been obese for years & he is finally doing better but he's still type 2.
Posted 7/25/2007 5:44 PM (GMT 0)
Lynne,
Being obese is not a cause of diabetes, it's the other way around. Goofed up metabolism causes diabetics' bodies to store food energy as fat before moving it into the cells where it can be used. Because our 21st century lifestyle has lower exercise needs (we have cars, elevators, remote controls, dishwashers, power lawn mowers etc.) many pre-disposed people are developing insulin resistance which elevates sugar and causes fat formation. If we had more regular muscle use (saddling and riding a horse or driving a carriage to a destination could use up 200 or more calories!) in our everyday lives we would have lowered insulin resistance and many of us would never go diabetic.

The key to preventing or helping to fix diabetes will almost always hinge on using our muscles, along with diet and medication. Since we no longer scrub clothes on a washboard or climb several flights of stairs a day, milk cows or beat rugs, or do any of the other things we used to do our calorie needs have diminished but our bodies don't know that we have labor saving devices. The human body looks upon food as an opportunity to live until the next food source is found. Diabetes is a result of humans who made it through famines by having stored fat.

We no longer have famines in our countries, but we are all ready if one comes along!
Posted 7/26/2007 5:09 PM (GMT 0)

Sorry Jeannie, I hope I haven't misunderstood.

I think obesity is a primary cause of diabetes, not the other way around. I certainly don't think that diabetes causes obesity! Obesity is caused by to much sugar in the blood which necessitates a large production (injection in my case!) of insulin which is an anabolic or fat building hormone. If we cut right down on the sugar and starch the body has an opportunity to stop storing fat and use glucagon - a catabolic hormone -  to burn fat instead.

Sugar makes us fat, nothing else!

All the best,

fergusc

Posted 7/26/2007 8:12 PM (GMT 0)
You didn't misunderstand. Obesity is not a direct cause of Type2 diabetes or every fat person in the world would be diabetic. Some people are obese and not diabetic. Some people are diabetic and have never been obese. The tendency to develop diabetes is directly linked to the inability of the body to metabolize simple sugar molecules and move them across cell membranes. Excess sugar present in the blood stream signals the body to convert it into fat for later energy use. This is what I mean when I say that Type2 diabetes causes us to add fat to our bodies.

You have simplified the ways these hormones work and sort of misnamed them. Anabolic means to build up, not necessarily add fat. Catabolic means to break down into smaller parts and again, not necessarily break down fat. These two words are often misused in body building programs for their own purposes and to the exclusion of their real meanings so I can understand where your ideas came from.

If sugar is the only thing that makes us fat that doesn't explain the physiques of the Inuit people when the explorers first found them. Their aboriginal diet contained almost no sugar or carbohydrates. Their primary source of energy was whale and fish fats. Tooth decay was unknown and diabetes was nonexistent. Their fat came from fats in their diet, not excess sugars.

Metabolism is complex but one of the things I first learned about this disease for Type2's is that body weight can influence our ability to exercise, our caloric need and our insulin resistance. I also learned that the high blood sugars caused by insulin resistance causes the body to store excess calories as fat. Hence the conclusion that Type2 diabetes can make you fat, which in turn lowers our ability to exercise and raises insulin resistance and then we are on the merry-go-round. See?
Posted 7/27/2007 12:34 AM (GMT 0)

Can I put my ignorant two cents in here?  I believe I've read that it works both ways but neither is absolute.  There are several factors that would make exceptions for each case.  Not all obese may end up diabetic although some might be temporarily for as long as they are obese.  Not all diabetics are obese for different reasons.  I thought I had read that insulin could put weight on the person which is why exercise is so important as well.  Too many factors here.  So, in some cases, yes, obesity may lead to diabetes and vice versa but not always.  (and if I'm in error on this, please correct me.)

Lanie smurf

Posted 7/28/2007 3:02 AM (GMT 0)
Fergus...You had better duck! You have said that which can never said out loud.
Posted 7/28/2007 10:55 AM (GMT 0)
Jeannie, I didn't say that diabetes was caused by obesity, but that obesity was one of the primary causes. Although not all diabetics are obese and not all obese persons are diabetic, there is nevertheless a strong and well proven correlation.
As you put it, the inability of the body to metabolise sugar, or insulin resistance in other words is also greatly influenced by the amount of body fat present - particularly in adipose tissue of course. There are so many examples of insulin resistance being reduced or even eliminated by sufficient weight loss that the cause and effect is unarguable I think. At the same time there is no inevitability about diabetics becoming obese and I think any suggestion otherwise is highly dangerous to our attitudes to how we deal with our condition. With normal, or near normal blood sugars and adequate exercise there is nothing inevitable about obesity if one is diabetic.
Of course anabolic and catabolic hormones do a lot more than simply create or burn fat! Our whole metabolism is a constant balancing act between these two hormones however and both diabetes and obesity are symptomatic of an imbalance in that metabolic process. Excess insulin in our bodies is one of the most important factors in such an imbalance and there is much we can do to pull this balancing act off. It doesn't matter how much sugar we have in our blood, we won't gain weight without insulin to convert it to fat. If we don't achieve this balance, then obesity / diabetes may result. The two are inextricably linked, I don't think we disagree about that, but I think it's wrong to say that diabetes causes obesity.
Incidentally, Stephansson's studies on the Inuit record that they were not an overweight people at first, but that the weight gain started to occur as their diet began to change to a more 'western' model.
It's the sort of subject we need to discuss in a lot more depth - let's keep it going!

All the best,

fergusc
Posted 7/29/2007 9:11 PM (GMT 0)
Fergusc,
The main reason that I claim for myself that diabetes causes obesity is because I WAS TAUGHT THAT IN MY VERY FIRST DIABETES NUTRITION CLASS!!! (Yes, I'm shouting.) Our instructor taught us that we were diabetic mainly from our bodies' difficulty moving sugar into the cells.(Insulin resistance) Our cells, especially muscle cells, cry out for nutrition and energy that they cannot access from the bloodstream. Because the cells are starved from not getting available nutrients they signal the brain that we are hungry even if we have just eaten. (This is why many diabetics most difficult time is late evening after dinner when they are not busy.)

Let me restate that. Our cells send out 'hunger signals' to the brain even if our stomach is full or there is food in our intestines, even if there is a high level of glucose in our blood. This is how many diabetics become obese. They believe that they are hungry, and, at the cellular level, they are! This is why a diabetic can feel hunger with a blood sugar of 250. True hunger, from low blood sugar, as well as glucose deprived hunger from insulin resistance is all the same to a diabetic's cells because in either case they aren't getting the glucose they need for energy.

The reason I feel the need to make this point clear is not to be argumentative. It's because for the first time in that Diabetic Nutrition class I took, I understood my constant hunger, inability to diet and why I was obese. I had been chasing my tail around for years, going to counselors, taking diet pills, joining 'fat' clubs and basically blaming myself for my obesity. When that dietician told me that my disease was the reason for my being overweight and that I had to fight the disease to gain health... It was like someone had lifted a huge weight off of my shoulders.

I didn't have bad will power. I wasn't eating all the wrong things. I took the needed medication to move the glucose into my cells and BINGO!!! my constant hunger was gone! I stopped gaining weight. My excessive thirst disappeared. As long as my numbers were good, I felt good and could control my appetite. I want to share this with as many 'fat' diabetics as I can. I don't want them beating themselves up for being unable to get a handle on their whole weight problem. I don't want to give them permission for 'pigging out' but I want them to understand that their disease is a contributing factor to their obesity.

I have the genetic makeup of a person who processes glucose incorrectly. Because of this my body converts blood glucose into fat instead of moving it into the cells where it is needed. If I keep my glucose levels good and try to turn this around (with medication and exercise) my body will use the glucose in my bloodstream and stop sending 'hunger' signals to my brain. In other words, my diabetes will be stopped from influencing me to seek calories that will be converted into fat. In my case, if I could have been diagnosed at age 24 when I was running fasting blood sugars of 125 and was told to lose some weight after a pregnancy...(And NO MENTION OF POSSIBLE DIABETES WAS MADE!)... if I would have been told I was diabetic...

Nevermind... It wouldn't have helped because metformin wasn't available until 1994... and they had different ideas about diabetes and nobody had heard the words "insulin resistance" yet...Anyway!!! I'm glad we have better meds now and are learning more about metabolism... I'm blathering... I'll be quiet now.
Posted 7/30/2007 12:26 AM (GMT 0)
Jeannie;

Please explain to me why when people loose weight their finger stick readings as well as their HbA1c readings all go down.
Posted 7/30/2007 3:22 PM (GMT 0)
In order to lose weight you must have a deficit calorie intake, or eat less calories than your body needs to move and function. When this happens your body goes to its stored energy in the fat cells and coverts what it needs to glucose.

The more fat (adipose tissue) many of us have, the higher our insulin resistance. As we lose weight and while we are following a lower calorie food plan we are eating less carbs (so they aren't showing up in the blood sugar). The good carbs we are eating are converting into glucose and moving more efficiently into the cells because of the lowered insulin resistance.

The less fat we have the better our own insulin works. Because our insulin works better the glucose is moved more efficiently and since it's not floating around in the blood stream, but instead is being utilized in the cells we get lower finger stick readings. Also, since it's not floating around in the blood stream it doesn't have as much of a chance to adhere to the hemoglobin cells so our glycohemoglobin reflects that.

One thing to remember, this is only one facet of Type2 diabetes. Some peeps (like Warren) were never obese and developed high blood glucose that required medication. We don't fully understand why everything works the way it does. But because of better treatments and education we are learning to keep a close eye on our food plans, blood sugar levels and exercise. Even so there are no guarantees that this will make everything peachy keen. A couple of my friends did everything they could to stay in tight control and still died of diabetic complications. There are parts of the puzzle still missing. Hope this helps.
Posted 8/2/2007 6:40 PM (GMT 0)

Jeannie,

Sorry, but you're wrong about diabetes causing obesity, which I think was your initial argument. In fact I find that if a 'diabetes nutrition class' tries to convince you of something, it pays to check all the facts before you go much further. Many are simply repeating what they've been told and don't particularly appreciate an educated argument.

Initially you said that obesity caused diabetes, but then your later reply states that it was your diabetes that made you overweight. So which was it? The sort of hunger you describe is highly likely in many cases to be a result of a poor blood sugar profile, which probably indicates insulin resistance or type 2 diabetes (full-blown insulin resistance!)

We're not going to disagree that less body fat leads to less insulin resistance. But it's best not to resort to calorie counting in an attempt to shift the pounds. That's what leads people down the blind alley of a low-fat diet. A low-fat diet is not only fundamentally unnatural and unhealthy, but increases the amount of starch in the diet and as a result messes up your blood sugars further. The 'Fat diabetics' you describe have I think generally been badly advised and fallen victim to this phenomenon. Did your 'grand experiment' not lead you to the same conclusion? Surely a 'person who processes glucose incorrectly' is probably a person consuming too much glucose, resulting in weight gain and diabetes. And we ALL turn excess blood sugar into fat, not just diabetics. Our glucagon will not start to convert stored fat into glucose unless our insulin levels are sufficiently low - which they never are on a starchy diet.

Now I'm a slim (Type 1) diabetic, and I've had the condition for 26 years. But it wasn't till I abandoned the 'recommended' diet that I became slim and started using much less insulin. Since I eat a lot more fat than I did before, I'm certainly not on a low calorie diet but my lipids are great, blood pressure too, and my blood glucose levels are those of a non-diabetic. None of those things were true beforehand. In other words, my diabetes didn't make me fat, it was the way I dealt with it.  

All the best,

fergusc

Posted 8/11/2007 12:21 AM (GMT 0)
Oh, do come on!
I thought we might provoke a healthy debate here, but it's all gone very quiet. I'm pretty sure there are other opinions out there, so let's hear them!

All the best,

fergusc
Posted 8/11/2007 2:33 AM (GMT 0)
Fergus;

You have poked a stick into a hornet's nest. The hornets may be asleep, though.

To state that obesity causes diabetes is not done.

The logic of the other side of the "discussion" (that diabetes causes obesity) strikes me as arguing that flooding causes heavy rain.

If you are fat and diabetic and you lose weight your blood sugar will go lower and may even end up in the "normal" range. This is not to say that you aren't still "diabetic" but the point is your blood sugar is acceptable and presumably non-damaging. It seems to my simple mind that cause and effect are pretty clear. The one which, when removed, results in a correction of the condition, must be either the cause or a pretty good imitation.

This, unfortunately, opens up all sorts of psychological doors which probably should remain closed, for the most part.

I think I had better shut up now.

NOTE: This obviously does not apply to type 1 folks, whose beta cells are gone or non-producing.

Post Edited (What's his name?) : 8/10/2007 8:36:03 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 8/11/2007 1:37 PM (GMT 0)

I guess I'll join in...

I haven't a clue which side is "right". Sounds like a "chicken and the egg" problem.

Until my diagnosis, my only "exposure" to diabetes was from my father's generation. My grandmother had diabetes and passed away from heart problems when I was a child. My late father was diagnosed when he was in his 50's (oh my, sounds familiar!), and in those days they called it "borderline". He was on pills for several years and had to go on insulin eventually. He was overweight when he was diagnosed, and in those days the thinking of the medical profession was that Type 2 was more or less "self induced". At least that's what he was told. He lost weight, but the diabetes stayed. Fast forward to now... I was recently diagnosed, I'm in my mid 50's.... let's see.... my grandmother developed diabetes in her 50's, my father developed diabetes in his 50's... I was one of those "hypos" all my adult life. I never thought it would flip, but my doctor's answer to that question was "you're not the age you were then." I think it's family history in my case.

The good news is that we have better resources now, like this place... so either way, there's more hope. That's just my 2 cents...

Bear

Posted 8/13/2007 1:57 AM (GMT 0)

This is a complex matter because there are many variables.  First of all, it's a fact that obesity is increasing globally, probably because of changes in diet and activity.  Some of those people are developing type 2 diabetes because of their obesity.  Diabetes as well as heart disease are increasing around the world simply because of the increase of obesity.  However, some of those same people might have been skirting diabetes their whole lives but keeping the disease at bay if they'd stayed of normal weight and lived a physically active life.  Then, they wouldn't have been a statistic but adding all the weight tipped the balance (pun intended!) and now they're diabetics.  Those people would probably have a good chance to normalize their blood sugars if they lost weight and increased activity.  Not all of the people who became obese would turn into diabetics, however - and that would make a good study!  Diabetics who are on insulin frequently gain weight and this is a very good reason not to follow the ADA plan.  Then, there's genetics.  In my own family, both my grandmother and mother were type 2 diabetics, "apples" - so, here I am fighting against the genes but I'm wiser than they were.  I'm not a full-fledged diabetic because I can still control my blood sugar without meds.  So, the answer is complicated to be sure, but I also think the reason for the increase in diabetes worldwide is because of the increase in obesity.

Lanie    

Posted 8/13/2007 11:29 PM (GMT 0)
Lanie and What's his name, I think you both make good points. I think that, in time, we may come to realise that there is a very strong correlation between the overproduction (or over-injection) of insulin and both obesity and diabetes. If this hyperinsulinemia is the primary cause of both these related conditions then it further discredits the ADA / CDA / Diabetes UK dietary recommendations, all of which make large doses of insulin inescapable.
I think it was commonplace before the discovery of insulin to treat diabetics with a diet high in fat and protein, but very low in 'saccharine matter'. This would extend the lives of Type 1 diabetics sometimes to over a year post diagnosis, compared to only a few weeks or months on a typical starchy diet. Perhaps the advent of recombinant dna human insulin has made the hormone so plentiful and inexpensive to produce that many have lost sight of the importance of reducing the need for it in the first place.
Genetics also play a part of course, Lanie. It may well have been Bernstein who made the point that the very genes that were predisposed towards survival in leaner times now conspire to make us gain weight and become diabetic. Me, I'm the only diabetic in my family, so I'm just lucky I guess!

All the best,

fergusc
Posted 8/14/2007 3:56 PM (GMT 0)
Some fuel for the fire ...

http://diabetesupdate.blogspot.com/2007/06/thin-type-2s-disprove-that-ovesity.html
Posted 8/15/2007 3:32 AM (GMT 0)
Thank you Ruth!!! My point exactly! Here's some more fuel for the fire:

You Did NOT Eat Your Way to Diabetes
Posted 8/15/2007 2:43 PM (GMT 0)
That is a very nicely written article. Thanks! sandy
Posted 8/16/2007 9:27 PM (GMT 0)
My point ... is that it works both ways. Chicken or the egg?

If overweight people got diabetes ... MORE people would have it! Is there a connection? Yes. But I think one needs the propensity in order for diabetes to be activated.
Posted 8/16/2007 9:35 PM (GMT 0)
"If overweight people got diabetes ... MORE people would have it!"

That depends (at least in part) on how long it takes to develop, doesn't it? How many years do you have to be how many pounds "overweight" before your pancreas blows a fuse? Who knows?

The pancreas may limp along for quite a while, and the time may vary quite a bit among the populace. Also, the process is obviously reversible (to a certain extent) if caught early enough.

Post Edited (What's his name?) : 8/16/2007 3:46:33 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 8/16/2007 11:08 PM (GMT 0)
"If overweight people got diabetes ... MORE people would have it!"

More people ARE getting it, I think that's beyond dispute. Just as more people are becoming overweight. And as What's his name says, if you address the weight issue, the diabetes issue is greatly reduced.

I think if thinness was seen as a risk factor for diabetes, we'd all be happy to gain a few pounds!

All the best,

fergusc
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