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Posted 10/13/2007 2:55 AM (GMT 0)
Hi all--

I've been so sick lately, in bed, not comfortable in any place, bed or recliner, not able to walk much to do severe back/arthritis pain, and diarrhea too.  So often I just get shut up in the bedroom sometimes and my younger son (19) in his.  My son has some physical problems and is fiing for SSI and is not good at keeping up with his appointments and medication and stuff and other responsibility and for a long time when he was younger I was the reminder and the helper.  I just can't help him anymore.  He just takes off sometimes, takes advantage of the fact I'm too sick to say anything and often, doctors will act like I should be helping him more and I try to explain that I do the best I can and he is 19, my oldest son will yell at me that I don't let him go out enough, or I don't keep track of him enough, whatever I do is wrong, basically I'm ineffective according to whoever is complaining at the time.  I'm just plain tired.  Too tired and sick sometimes to argue, but then I know I would feel awful if something bad happened to my youngest son.  And he takes advantage of it, taking off in the car (on my insurance) while I'm asleep say after surgery or from pain meds.  He doesn't have a very good track record for staying out of trouble and is flunking out of school and welching on some other commitments.  I let go because I have to.  My other son is independent and I'm very happy about it, I just wish I could find a middle ground with the younger one until he can realize he needs to start working on getting it together.  Sometimes I think he screws around because he never wants to leave me, because he's worried about me, and he gets in trouble because he's scared for himself and me because of our health, but he doesn't realize that as a toxic person, I just can't handle it.  I worry when he's gone and he can be a pain at home when he doesn't want to be there.  I feel like I'm an ineffective parent and I just don't know what to do or say about it.  Any ideas?

Posted 10/13/2007 3:10 AM (GMT 0)
Marji . . . are you a single mom? If so, is his dad involved at all? Just wonder if that might be part of the answer . . . getting dad involved. Hey girl!! Take ALL your car keys and make them unavailable for him. Sick or not, you can at least expect him to respect your property. The rest we've kind of talked about in another thread . . . but it would be great to get some insight from the others. I don't think you'll hurt him by being firm with him. You just need to know how you'll enforce it. A counselor might be able to help. If you aren't already taking an anti-d you really sound like you need one. If you are already taking one, you may need to have the doctor consider increasing the dose or switch anti-d's or find a combination that helps you out. You have a lot going on and depression would make all the parenting headaches even worse. Just a thought . . . a loving thought. Blessings!
Posted 10/13/2007 3:24 AM (GMT 0)

Hi Marji, I'm the parent of a 27 year old son and 22 year old daughter. I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt sick or not sick our kids will try to minipulate us. I'm still waiting for my own kids to grow up. I think we all have felt like you do from time to time. I look back at things I wish I had done different. I kept a pretty tight reign on my son but somtimes I think a little to tight. Than I think maybe I should have beat him more LOL. I'm really not making light of your situation but both of your son's are legally adults. The thing that hit me the hardest isn't your youngest son and what he's doing it's your older son (yelling at you?) EXCUSE ME! Tell him don't let the door hit him on the *** on the way out. Nobody has the right to yell at you especially your son. Maybe if you show him the door your other son won't be so hard to deal with. I didn't hear you say that your oldest one had any physical problems. If your 19 year old can't manage to make and keep his appt: oh well I guess he doesn't want it bad enough.

I know all of this sounds like I am being really harsh but like I said all parents are going to do battle with their kids from time to time. You've raised them now it's time to let them make their own mistakes.

Just an opinion from another mom

love ya

carol

Posted 10/13/2007 7:47 PM (GMT 0)
I'm not a parent, but I remember when I was 18 and decided to get smart with my mom. She told me I was welcome to try it on my own. I'd have to leave with the clothes on my back and nothing else, because the rest was hers. I appreciate the tough love they gave me. There comes a time when a person has to take some personal responsibility....sick or well. Take care of yourself girl. Judi
Posted 10/13/2007 7:56 PM (GMT 0)
Marji, my heart goes out to you because I know how hard it can be to parent when you are feeling so sick. I think that both you and the others are right that your son is an adult now and he might need some tough love even though he does have health problems. His health problems don't excuse many of the things he's been doing. I think Rosie's suggestion of a counselor is a great one. IF your son refuses to go, maybe you can go to get some support and some ideas of how to handle these situations. Hang in there - I know it's not easy. ((((Hugs))))
Posted 10/13/2007 10:16 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks, everyone. Sometimes, I just have to get it out. And thanks, Carol, LOL about that, you know, I wasn't a spanker and my son as a child didn't do anything to warrant it. In a way, it makes it harder. My sister was brutally strict and believed in spanking and her kids were afraid of her and her husband and I never wanted my children to be afraid of me, because I thought it might keep them from talking to me about important things and it just didn't seem right. My boyfriend is a real southerner brought up spare the rod, spoil the child and came into my son's life too late for the dad thing, his real father hasn't been around since my son was four, and then only for a one day visit. I don't even know where his father is. You're right, my older son did get an earful from my boyfriend and got kicked out of the house once for yelling at me. My youngest son took off up north and stayed with him for a week, and then he was politely deposited back at my door, his brother has been more understanding since then, somewhat. We don't talk much anyway, just about once a month and I try to keep it light.
Rosie, you know, I do seem pretty depressed, I've been running back and forth from the john alot lately and in pain. I think the counselor is a good idea. I would like to see my son get on some antidepressants possibly, if there is one that he can safely take, because it might help him see things a little more clearly and treat others better and not be so nihilistic. Thanks Judi, your input is really valuable. I've put it to my son in the same way, and he usually acts good for a while until I start to trust or get so sick he can get away with stuff. I just don't know how people do it. I guess having a good partner is the key. My bf is good about a lot of things, but he just says," oh well, let him go, he'll learn." Maybe that is the key. And thanks hippi for the hugs and the advice. Maybe I'm wrong to consider his health problems and treat him special, the rest of the world doesn't (well they do, they discriminate against people with epilepsy alot) but I mean, not every employer is like that. and for just understanding and listening and caring, thank you all. I want to get him in the psychiatrist and then see if maybe we can go together some to work on a plan for him to become independent. He doesn't understand that my frustration comes from a fear that if I keep getting sicker, I might not be able to help him anymore. I know its going to take some time, but he's got to make a start.
Posted 10/14/2007 3:44 PM (GMT 0)
Marji, one of the toughest lessons for a parent is to learn that we have to set limits for our kids, regardless of their situation. At 19 he's pretty much grown and if he doesn't grow up now, you'll likely be dealing with these same issues when he's 39. Set firm boundaries and stick to them and most importantly, try not to feel guilty about making him grow up and become independent. It's like keeping a 6 year old from eating ice cream 24 hours a day. You hate to say no but know it's in their best interest.

Hang in there and let us know how it goes.

(((hugs)))

Pat
Posted 10/14/2007 7:36 PM (GMT 0)
Marji, I have to say if he is a repeat offender- as in he will act okay until you are sick or begin to have some trust again then perhaps it is time for him to be on his own. As in he needs to experience the real world. My uncle pulled this kind of $%^* and my grandmother kicked him out when she had enough. Within 6 months he had learned what she wanted him to, that no one was going to clean up his messes and that acting like he was would only result in really nasty consequences. Once he learned his lesson she allowed him to move back in with some serious conditions- she also made it clear if he broke the rules he lost his last chance to live in her home. He toed the line from then on until he moved back out on his own 2 years later when he had enough saved to get his own place, his own stuff, and some cushion against emergencies. Your son needs to learn to respect you, something he obviously doesn't do now. Your car is off limits since he isn't paying insurance. Your house, your rules or he can hit the door and try it on his own. Then stick to your guns and actually do it. If his doctors think you should be responsible for his health, inform them he is an adult and thus responsible for his own health. You need to make it clear to him you will not be responsible for his medical issues, then have the doctors tell him what ignoring them will do. After he understands the consequences of not taking care of himself you need to leave it to him. Unfortunately he is no longer a child to be protected from himself, instead he is an adult who needs to learn to be responsible for himself. There are consequences when adults do stupid stuff and when they break rules. It sounds like your son thinks he is still 12 and can get out of anything because you will always bail him out.

Unfortunately, we all feel guilty for all the things we can't do and overcompensate for it with our kids and other loved ones. We have to get past our own feelings of guilt and inadequacy and think like our great grandparents did a little more often. Maybe spanking too much is a bad thing, but they made their kids face the consequences of their actions and our grandparents lived in a generation where if you broke rules there were definite consequences. As a result they respected their parents, learned to be self sufficient, and generally did things for themselves as adults. Yes, their parents helped when they could but they still learned to try and do stuff for themselves. They would never take the car without permission. They would never yell at their mom. Simply put they had discipline. Today's society seems to think discipline is a crime, that our children should never face consequences for their actions, that parents must always bail their kids out and never tell them to grow up. I wish we had not forgotten that kids are not the rulers of the house. Maybe your boyfriend should be allowed to sit down with your son and tell him how it is going to be if you can't bring yourself to do it. Explain how the next time he takes the car without permission it will be reported stolen. How he will have to face the consequences of his actions and will be kicked out if he doesn't straighten up. Sad to say some kids need to be scared into acting like adults. His doctors need to stop expecting you to treat your son like a child and start giving him straight talk on the consequences of behaving stupidly about his health.

Or you could send him to a counselor who will tell him he is right in his actions and you are too hard on him. See, counselors tend to agree with the patient and give validity to their expectations of the world. Sadly one will say you should allow your son to continue and try and get you to believe you are wrong. For some reason they think kids who live at home should be babied no matter their age.

The other option is to accept his behavior and give up on making him into a responsible adult.

My ideas are not new, but then again my kids are 12 11/12 and 10 so I know absolutely nothing about what you are going through first hand. Unless you count my step-brother and uncle whose situations I watched first-hand.
Posted 10/15/2007 2:17 AM (GMT 0)

Thanks so much Pat and Redrose,

I have made it clear that he will stay IF he follows my rules until the end of his second semester which starts in January, he will have either totally flunked out by then or got it together, in which case there may be a chance that I can continue to keep him going.  If school is in fact too difficult for him, then he will get a job and pay rent and live like a roomate.  He will be responsible for his own appointments, if he needs additional help remembering or organizing, then he must communicate his needs or just not get it anymore.  He will be on a shoestring budget of four dollars a day for lunch, which is all I can afford.  He did successfully quit smoking and I am very proud of him for that, because I refused to buy him cigarettes and on the amount of money I give him, he can't afford them.  Car by permission only, when he starts working and finishes paying off his car--he's buying it from my dad, he pays for his own registration and insurance, then he can do with it as he will and live as a roomate status paying rent if he chooses to live here by our rules.  Due to his health problems and being a relatively new driver with epilepsy and a heart condition, I do expect phone calls if he is not coming home for dinner, because we do take dinner together.  While he is in school, overnights during the week are not allowed and on the weekend by permission are without the car and by permission only, because I'm supporting him and he needs to do homework and some household work.  If his friends want to pay his rent and take care of him while he's in school, he can live with them, which they don't.  He is welcome to have his friends over at our house on the weekends or during the week within reason.  The way I look at it is that I'm letting my son live for free while he goes to college as a way of investing in him, and helping him not to have to start out with a mountain of debt like I did.  Because I'm investing in him, and he has betrayed my trust by dropping classes and dragging his education out as long as possible and flunking and stuff, I feel this is reasonable for the end of this semester, since he is on warning, and next semester, when he will hopefully not have decended into academic probation.  I don't think this stuff is unreasonable and I expect him to be working by summer if he is well enough or on ssi and going through voc rehab to try to live if not and hopefully the system will help him.  At any rate, I have an end date, which is more than I had before, and he is adjusting to the rules and staying home more and helping more and not taking off.  I think this map I layed out with him helped.  As did the help from you guys.  In a way, I get my cake and eat it too this way because I will have done all I can do and by summer his situation will be changed and hopefully car paid off by then.  At that point, things change.  And if he can't follow these rules in the time before summer, then he will have to quit school work and find another place to live.  I'm hoping that by sitting down with him and making this crystal clear that he will understand his options and behave properly if he chooses to stay. 

Posted 10/15/2007 8:49 AM (GMT 0)
Oh Marji . . . you did great sis!!! Bravo . . . clear, fair, and firm. He will come back and thank you later Marji! *phewww* Hopefully he'll see that you are being more than supportive and fair and he'll abide by your rules for the most part. It's really hard sometimes being a parent, and doing it as a single mom has to be even harder. I'm so proud of you sis!!! Blessings!
Posted 10/15/2007 4:26 PM (GMT 0)
Marji, congrats. I just hope he keeps up the changes. But at least you have a plan for if he doesn't. You have done all you can for him, and he is an adult now. Making him take responsibility will make a huge difference in your relationship. Just remember it is not cruel and it is definitely reasonable. I recall my step-brother felt his rules were cruel and unreasonable and they required he stop breaking the law and pay for his own legal fees, along with following the house rules. I think they were more than reasonable and that they were common sense. He was kicked out because he couldn't do simple things like follow the law, do dishes once a week, wash laundry once a month, keep his room clean, and not steal money from other family members. He is still in trouble with the law 20 years later. But his mother tried. She raised 2 other kids who turned out to be decent people. He just would not listen even from an early age. But she has some responsibility because she didn't put her foot down until he stole and totaled her favorite car, taking his kid sister with him and nearly killing her in the process.

My uncle on the other hand learned to pick up after himself, not stay out to all hours, manage his money effectively, and generally be a good person. Today he is married, has 2 kids, and manages to pay a mortgage when he couldn't pay his own registration or car insurance despite making 500 a week when my grandmother said enough. She had less than 300 a week and was paying all the bills and buying all the food.

Do not feel guilty and keep in mind the two cases I have seen and how bad it could get if you don't stick to your guns. Because no matter how good a kid is they are still at risk for doing stupid things. Unfortunately stupidity is a common problem in the young who think they are invincible and that mom or dad will bail them out of any trouble. I wish my parents would bail me out of any trouble. As things stand my parents think helping me would be the worst thing to do- neither of them thinks lupus is disabling. So to them I am being a big baby. (Of course the man I called dad all my childhood shouldn't have to since he has no blood with me, just wish my mother knew who really fathered me).
Posted 10/16/2007 12:41 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks Redrose and Rosie,
You and the others really helped me figure out my own way through it. I think what bothered me most was that I hadn't put an end date on things, so it seemed hopeless and forever. Now I know that by this summer, one way or the other, things will be better and I can deal with that. I also found out that my son had gotten two letters from his PC doc to bring to the student services disability coordinator and twice has been rejected by her in asking for extra exam time, the ability to lay down should he feel his heart failing or faint or a seizure coming on, the ability to have some extra tutoring and other help in school. I read through his college handbook disability policy and found that they are breaking their own policies. They told him he needs letters from specialists and thats not true. His own PC doc is totally adequate. Also, they told him he had to get a letter from a psychiatrist and neither ADHD or epilepsy are considered mental illnesses by any standard, even their own policy, and that is not necessary either. He has three qualifying disabilities, is flunking out, and cannot get any disability help from the college. He said the lady in the office is really nice and tries, but I told him that doesn't matter, he is flunking out and he needs to talk to her boss. I think we are going to have to start doing things in writing and get legal. I had no idea he had tried so hard and got no where. He just says its hopeless. Unfortunately, the college looks out for its own and is very political. If you don't have a parent or relative working there, good luck. But, that's the way the world is now, more and more it seems, or maybe just the south is worse. I don't remember things up north being so overt anyway. Well, they wont talk to me at all, even with his permission because they know I won't give up. Well, we're going down that road and are going to try to get him some special consideration somehow. I just think its awful, on the disability office side. Thanks so much. I hate to have to be so strict with him, but he is immature for his age and while he lives with me its the only way to have any peace and to keep him out of trouble. Redrose, I know we both had some really crappy growing up stuff. I know it's terrible to not know or see your dad, I think my son is really affected by that. He used to get presents at Christmas but no attempt to visit or anything and then the letters just stopped. It was like he was abandoned all over again. I don't see how a parent can be so distant and not see how badly it hurts the child. Thanks both of you and everyone for the help.
Posted 10/16/2007 4:46 AM (GMT 0)
My daughters father walked away, but they hated him already so it did not feel like abandonment- in fact my oldest said she never wanted to see him again and my youngest could have cared less so long as she got a happy meal with a toy once a month. I didn't have anyone who acted like a father to me because my mother is selfish and sadly did not want me. Had she given me up I would have been better off. Her first husband got labeled my father but was basically uninvolved. I saw him maybe 10 minutes in a 3 day visit outside of the drive to and from. My step-father was told he had no right to interfere with me that I wasn't his. So he stopped trying. I cannot say what life would have been like with a father figure. At this point it is frustrating because of genetic stuff but otherwise I really don't care anymore.

Your son's situation sounds bad. I would call legal aid and the state. They have to enforce the disability laws. There are laws. Check online I can't recall what or where to find the info but there is a federal group that enforces it. Threaten the school with them and they should co-operate more. I wish you luck.
Posted 10/16/2007 7:22 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks redrose, Iknow how you feel on that parent end. My dad and his new wife are spending every dime travelling around the country and sold my son a real lemon of a car (someone put something in the gas tank and it blows exhaust in your face and clouds up the windshield with black soot. They never told us about said it was in perfect shape, so we drove 5 hours on the last of my money to pick it up and found out halfway on the ride home when we were both ready to pass out. I've put over a 1000 into the car and my son 400 and owes my dad 3600 for a 2000 blazer, oxidizing and crappy. He would have got a better deal at a buy here pay here. And I called them when we got the car home and told them what it did and asked if they knew and they were both aware and sent us home in a death trap. So now, while they drive around for months at a time in a 3 mpg big new motorhome and have a house in florida and spend more on dinner than I do for a week of groceries, they are mad because they aren't getting their money because they overspent on their vacation and I'm wondering how I can get rid of this crappy car without paying full price to fix it. I can't believe my own father was awful to me. In the past, he would have told me up front or said, "you don't want that" but now its a big mess. And the blue book is wrong, they didn't use kelly or the other famous one, they entered the condition as pristine. Sorry for rambling, but I do understand about toxic family. They are supposed to visit and I don't want them to. I'm so sick of fighting with people, I wish I lived so so far away sometimes.
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