has my lyme gone chronic or am i having post-cure fatigue?

No, your Lyme hasn't gone chronic, you just haven't been treated properly. With complete and thorough treatment, you should regain your health.

10 days of doxy is nowhere near enough to address Lyme. That's barely enough to irritate it let alone kill and totally eradicate it!!!

Please don't swallow what people call "Post-Lyme fatigue syndrome". It is a phrase made up by doctors who were not willing to treat Lyme until beyond the eradication of all symptoms.

Some people who cannot afford to go to an LLMD choose to treat Lyme with one of the at home herbal protocols. You can learn about them in the "New to Lyme?" thread at the top of the forum.

thx you guys. i need all the help i can get. i'll look into the herbal treatments here. i spent around 80$ on the bulk herbs and the GSE liquid. oh i forgot i bought a 30$ bottle of andrographis too. supposed to kill spirochetes. so i'm will to pay for whatever to get over this fatigue. i'm sick of feeling half drunk all the time. i have things i need to do around here. peace and be well.

wow. didn't know that about GSE. also despite this warning i tried it anyway out of desperation to find something that works: "Grapefruit seed extract (GSE) comes from the seed, pulp and white membranes of grapefruit. It has a reputation as an antifungal and antibacterial agent, but when I discussed your question with Tieraona Low Dog, M.D., director of the Fellowship at the Arizona Center for Integrative Medicine, and an authority on botanical medicine, she said that it is unclear how potent GSE is as an antibacterial or antifungal. She said that many grapefruit seed extracts on the market are adulterated and noted that a German study of six commercial grapefruit seed extracts showed that five of these products contained benzethonium chloride, a synthetic antimicrobial often used in cosmetics and other topical preparations, as well as the preservatives triclosan and methylparaben. Dr. Low Dog adds that this finding is consistent with those of other researchers who have found benzethonium chloride or triclosan in samples of liquid and powdered grapefruit seed extracts. When grapefruit seed extract is used topically (say, for treatment of athlete's foot as I have recommended), the presence of these synthetic substances is not a big issue. But she cautions that grapefruit seed extract often is recommended for treatment of infant thrush (also a fungal infection) and says she would not recommended putting a potentially adulterated product in an infant's mouth or that anyone use it internally." --Andrew Weil.M.D.

i am just doing my own thing. just very natural thing, which is ingesting herbs, some of which are supposed to kill lyme, other to support the immune system so it can fight as the lyme killers weaken or kill the spirochetes. i think i will try a coffee enema though and see what the effects are; attack them from the rear, so to speak lol. always good when you can sneak up BEHIND your enemy hehe. no, no excercise yet. will start soon thought. i can imagine the benefits.

never been bitten before. this is my first real run-in with a tick. the first bite gave me all those nasty symptoms. what i really want to know is, is there a similar scenario to mine someone knows of where one was bitten, developed the common several symptoms, then took a bit of doxy like 9 days later (in my case, early maybe) which killed all the symptoms but the fatigue? i was bitten may 5th and now all i have is the mental lethargy. is this normal? like even if i had taken a month's worth of doxy or more, would i still have the fatigue? if it's not "post lyme fatigue" then what is it? do i still have tons of spirochetes coursing thru me making me feel tired? but if i did wouldn't i have a few other bad symptoms too-- aches, fever, etc.? or is the fatigue due to die-off of not only the spirochetes but from the healthy bacteria the GSE is killing? can one experience die-off fatigue from the healthy bacteria too? i take 15 drops of GSE 3 times a day. but i know spirochetes are hard to kill as they eat the food we do, and making the biofilms. just where am i at lyme-wise? just why am i lethargic and nothing else? is this very common among lyme victims or is it still too early to tell just where i'm at? i think this way: at the onset when i was bitten, i had lyme cells eating on me of course causing pain, fever, fatigue. i took 10 days of doxy and followed that immediately, (thanks to receiving them promptly in the mail) with the GSE and andrographis and a few days later i got my herbs from bulk herb store. and i made the multi-herb tea and drink that a coupla times a day. i even ground the leaves in a hand cranked coffee grinder and made herb pills and take those too between the tea. so for the last several weeks i've been taking these herbs and now all i have is the brain fog/lethargy. i have physical energy if i can make my mind work enuf to use it. 10 days of doxy was not enuf, started on may 15th. but if the lyme just laughed that off then shouldn't i have other symptoms than just brain fog? with just 10 days and then the time that has passed since stopping the abx. i figure that it should be as if i didn't take any abx at all, i should have several bad symptoms like when i was first bitten. maybe i am having a long period of die-off fatigue? i can't sweat/bathe out the toxins as i'll describe below. so the die-off toxins maybe be overwhelming me. any thoughts? lol take your time, i know that was a lot of questions. i'm just trying to understand where the fatigue is coming from. dern it, it takes me 2 hours to be able to rise from bed after i wake. i've been awake 3 hours now and i feel like i've been up for 18. :( kinda of a weird slight tingle/ache in the center of my brain and SO tired/sleepy in the eyes. you guys ever feel that?

with the herbs i'm just trying to keep constantly bombarding the spirochetes with things lethal to them. they're not on a schedule, they attack all the time, so with herbs being safer than abx, they can be taken almost all day. no real protocol/timing needed. just take herbs they hate, your body will do the rest, that's what i figure. natural. anytime is a good time to throw water on a burning barn, ya know? if you have plenty of bulk herb then the 'take 2 or 3 times a day' is unnecessary. i can make many really cheap herb pills and take them all day, unlike expensive toxic abx. if your allergic to an herb you'll know it soon. but most are mild, just like all the ones we put in food. safe even in large amounts. i could literally eat a 1/4 pound of nettle in a soup and it not hurt. GSE is processed though and could be hurting me. but i'll bet i could make my own, hehe.---> in a blender liquify some chunks of grapefruit, peeling and all and the seeds from a few others, pour out the slush on a cookie sheet, SLOW dry it in the oven and then make a alcohol tincture by breaking up the 'cracker' small enough to go in the coffee grinder/blender. tinier bits will mean better diffusion/concentration of the beneficial compounds. homemade won't have the chemicals in it like in the above article i posted. i think i'll try it just to see.

i'll stop the GSE i bought for now. don't really think its helping anyway. i'll just stick to what the Creator made, things pulled from the ground and not made in a lab. keep it all natural and organic. i will be trying the Samento, Fo-Ti, Astragalus, Banderol, and Knotweed next while still drinking my weird tea. and eating all that yummy stinky garlic. i like to make a sour lime-aid and FINELY (like TINY) mince 2 tablespoons of garlic into it and drink it down after a small meal. the lime blends well with it, like lemon-garlic spice. easiest, tastiest way to eat it raw i discovered. better than chopping it up pill size and try to swallow it with water. and no sticky fingers. ;)


as far as 'detoxing' is concerned. the thought of a detox has always seemed to me like an unnatural mechanism for the body to have. the skin is designed to keep things in or out of the body. i've done a good bit of research and discovered that if one does use foot baths or saunas to force out toxic waste, it's a negligible amount. the ionic footbath is a sham. the brown water is oxidized salts and metals in the water and from the rust from the metal rods. not funk that came from your whole body. truly it's nonsense to me that you can leach out toxins through the feet, which are running (haha) thru the entire bloodstream and in the tissues, like there is some channel that they can be consolidated like with the colon and be expelled through the pores of the feet. there is no process in the body that can achieve this. nor can sweating profusely do any good. i found this a while ago:

[url]http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jan/28/health/he-skeptic28

if we can expel toxins via a liquid medium like sweat or foot bath water, then we could in turn absorb chemicals and toxins too. like swimming in the ocean. if we did, many ppl would be dead from the salt and pollution. think about all we put on our skin too, cologne/perfume, skin care products, house cleaners, occasionally bug spray and gasoline. all chemical and poisonous if we ate it, but we never get poisoned thru the skin. only things like poison dart frogs, certain plant saps and artists raw powdered pigments can poison us through the skin, for whatever reasons. i find this quite odd. why some but not others? but there has been no conclusive proof that the body rids itself of toxins through the pores by sweating or bathing. i feel the detox is a fallacy over all. a dip in a hot spring or sauna/sweatlodge session can make you feel refreshed, yes, but that's all it does. it does not jump start an internal mechanism for the expulsion of toxins. i'd like think that it does. it sounds good to someone in our position to be able to rid ourselves of what the spirochetes are depositing in our bodies, but my common sense slapped me a while ago and told me to wake up. detoxing is not something our bodies were designed to do. we can't consolidate toxic materials from deep in our bodies and carry them through the muscles/organs and up to the skin. just think about it. it's impossible. really, just what few toxins are hanging out near the skin surface or in the pores themselves get washed out by sweat or bathing. but the tons of it still deep in our bodies stay there. just through the liver/kidneys/colon do we rid ourselves of waste of all kinds. so i won't be bothering with buying tons of peroxide, spices, epsom salts for 'detox' bathes.



i'm happy someone is having success borderlyme. may you have continued success. in time i hope i will too. i'll be praying for you and everyone else.

darn my post are long! lol i have SO much on my mind lol. 'tis a curse of bipolar disorder and a 130 i.q. and now lyme lol. oh well. :P

one more link about sweating out toxins:

[url]http://www.quickmedical.com/blog/post/can-you-sweat-out-toxins.html

yes i do know that herbs have chemicals in them that we can have bad reactions to. i'm taking mine instinctively i think. the way they would be given in the old days by a medicine man/primitive healer. just in tea 3 times a day in pretty much equal amounts. the cat's claw being the one i use most of. even as i have just introduced these new chemicals and compounds into my body i've felt no weird negative effects. i do feel more tired than i did before taking them so the fatigue probably is due to die-off. instead of 3 cups a day i will drink 2 cups worth diluted in water kefir. i will be ordering some lumbrokinase, fo-ti, eleutherococcus, samento, banderol, knotweed and astragalus, and taking those in moderation to see if they help. and continue with the raw garlic and kefir. i figure if i am already pretty healthy since before being bitten as i haven't had a cold in 4 years, no refined sugar in my diet, just raw honey and stevia leaves, quit smoking pipe tobacco a year ago, i can help my immune system along with some moderately ingested strong herbs. i'll buy Buhner’s book too tho and see what i can learn. i read that lyme cells divide slow but that they're really hard to kill. in the time i made it to the e.r. after i was bitten and given the doxy and then followed that immediately with andrographis and the multi herb tea i think i will have a very good chance of kicking lyme out of me. it really didn't have a lot of time to spread i wouldn't think, despite all the bad symptoms at the beginning.

when i sleep its the usual, 9 hours of r.e.m. but it takes me 2-3 hours to get out of bed. when i do rise i have a decent amount of energy. also, i live alone and have no car, and taxi's are 5$ a mile cos there's only one cab stand. but then my grocer is 15 mins away. since i moved here in nov.'09 i have walked there, even with the lyme fatigue and hauled home 25-30 lbs of food in a medium a.l.i.c.e. pack every 2 weeks. NO food ever goes to waste in my home. i eat it all lol. then i go back. and 2 weeks ago i cleaned my apartment REALLY well. expended a lot of energy and after these rigorous exercises i don't feel too exhausted like i've read some people with chronic lyme are. but i'm foggy headed and sleepy feeling all day though. and i do have to psyche myself up to expend energy and concentrate. maybe it is a lot of of die-off i'm experiencing causing the mental lethargy. and the bacterial toxins are making me tired, stressing out my immune system as its too many to handle. i probably should lest my body rest a day or two from the tea and do some light exercise and take hot baths. or maybe it's not die-off at all, but the lyme drilling holes my brain? maybe i could develop a cerebral problem later? any brain damage caused by lyme? i hope not, i love my brain, it's VERY entertaining. i never get bored. i'm prolific thinker, artist, ingenious joke cracker, nutjob. my brain is the coolest brain i've ever had the pleasure of meeting. i don't want the i.q. of a soap dish.

concerning docs not knowing how to treat lyme, or the 10 day cure prescription, well i stated it once here just why it is, but it was removed by the mods. there is a definite reason but as it concerns a u.s. bio-warfare lab, a former **** bio-warfare scientist/lab director and a new world order agenda, comments concerning such things aren't allowed. but i do feel the lyme community definitely needs to understand where lyme came from, why it was injected into ticks and why they were purposely released, and that they should tell others. they all need to know who is responsible. lyme is not just a common tick cootie that's been around since the Creator made ticks. lyme and other rare diseases were engineered and injected into ticks and mosquitoes to be used as weapons to maim and kill enemy troops, civies, and livestock. to attack the enemy internally. so the govt does not want docs treating a disease they themselves purposely released for criminal reasons. most say lyme doesn't exist because in their medical training it is somehow communicated via govt protocol, to them the truth concerning lyme's origin and purpose, and when they have patients with lyme's symptoms, they're told to either disregard the patient's self diagnosis if they have no tick or tell-tale bull's eye rash or prescribe them a puny amount of doxy if they do have the tick and all the most common early symptoms. ppl need to understand that sick ppl make the feds rich. for the same reason they won't release the cure for cancer is the same reason they will purposely infect citizens with diseases concocted in petri dishes and test tubes like lyme and aids/hiv: to make money off from the treatment drugs and population control. it's too bad that more don't know why they have this abomination of a disease. it should be told far and wide, shouted from the rooftops, 'you have been poisoned by ____ and here are the reasons why____!' so many have questions but so few have the answers. ppl NEED to know why they are suffering.