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Fluroquinolones for bartonella?

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Posted 8/21/2014 4:23 AM (GMT 0)
So I found our today that factive (gemifloxacin), which is by far the most effective fluroquinolone for Lyme, bartonella, AND mycoplasma isn't available in Canada. I'm kind of disappointed in that because if I were to take one I would choose that one since you are taking less 320 mg rather than 400 mg avelox, 500 mg for levaquin, and 500 mg twice daily for cipro. So there is less risk of tendon damage or nerve damage.

So with my bartonella relapse all I could get was the other 4th generation Fluorquinolone avelox... Apparently works for bartonella and mycoplasma but this one doesn't work for Borrelia. But bartonella has been my main issue since I couldn't knock it out. The benefit of a Fluorquinolone is this drug does get into all the tissues of the body because it had a fluorine atom attached, so it goes right through tissues and cells.

I got the prescription filled for it to take it 5 days on 5 days off... But I am unsure of taking this one, I actually feel too scared to take this one. I know that levaquin is the worst one, but they are all pretty bad for permanent nerve damage, and they are powerfully toxic to mitochondria I am reading. Some advocacy groups are trying to get another black box warning in the states so Dr.s and patients will know about the mitochondrial toxicity. I think this is what is behind the nerve damage? I could get Parkinson's or some disease like that...

Ugh I feel so much like I totally lost my health for the rest of my life with this disease, not just with the damage of the infection, but also with the damage from the medication. I just don't know what to do... I really don't think I want to take this one. And chromosomal damage... I already got that from the tinidazole. My mitochondria are destroyed from tinidazole and minocycline already. It's not good...
Posted 8/21/2014 5:26 AM (GMT 0)
You sound just like me....

Doc wants me to take Levaquin for Bartonella, I have hesitated to take it for these reasons:

Have MTHFR gene mutation...and apparently the adverse reactions can be severe

Husband tour his Achilles tendon apart from just standing and shooting a basketball. He was finishing up a 2 week script of Levaquin.

I already have mitochondria damage, and nerve damage.

where in Canada are you? My parents are from NS, and hub from Windsor. You in Ontario?

What are your symptoms that are bartonella? Hope I can help somehow....
Posted 8/21/2014 3:54 PM (GMT 0)
No I live in Alberta.

Well from what I read levaquin is the worst of these drugs. But they are all pretty bad. I am probably going to pass.

These drugs are the only way to treat bartonella in just 1-3 months. Every other drug for bartonella needs to be taken for much longer. I am already in pretty rough toxicity shape so I should pass on this.

The other option is 8 months of rifampin with minocycline. I think I will do that with A-Bart.
Posted 8/21/2014 6:55 PM (GMT 0)
What about the tier 2 bart treatment from Treat.Lyme (Dr. M.R.)? He says you can treat bart with combining a macrolide with a tetracycline. Which is what I'm hoping to do with my zithro and doxy combo.
Does it have to be rifampin...or one of those type meds?
Posted 8/21/2014 7:33 PM (GMT 0)
8 months more of ABX? LymePickle, I don't know your situation exactly, but it sounds like ABX are not doing it for you. I would look into a (safer) alternative treatment. How old are you, btw? If you're young and have your whole life ahead of you, perhaps not poisoning yourself with these medications is a better option.
Posted 8/22/2014 1:56 AM (GMT 0)
I'm 29 years old... But in the past 9 months of this Lyme disease ordeal I have gone through, I am more like 45. So I aged 16 years in 9 months which is not good.

Ya... I need to get on the Japanese knotweed tincture. That will keep my DNA healthy, turn on healthy genetics, and kick all the bacteria OUT of the cells. Well that's what I believe anyways.

Or A-Bart.

I got so incredibly depressed today. I feel like dieing to be honest as this event that occurred to me destroyed my entire life. And I just thought about the Fluorquinolone drug and omg I was reading all the horror stories of Fluorquinolones. Too many to count. And permanent nerve damage too! OMG... I feel horrified.
Posted 8/22/2014 9:44 AM (GMT 0)
Try to keep your head up LymePickle!

I wonder would a pulsed regiman of a flouriquine with something else be feasible in treating bart? With the pulsed breaks of the drug would that help prevent tendon damage...I am not sure about this, just wondering..

Im pretty scared and reluctant to try the flouriquine family of drugs as well :-/
Posted 8/22/2014 2:12 PM (GMT 0)
Girlie:

The two-tiered protocol of using a tetracycline and macrolide together isn't guaranteed to work.  It will hold the infection at bay, but ideally we want to eradicate bart from the body.  I believe in some this may work if they are on it for say a year. 

Ideally you would want to use either one of 2 abx against bart, rifampin or septra DS (or bactrim in the United States).  But if you choose these abx you are looking at an 6-8 month treatment to ensure it is done!  Rifampin and septra DS block bartonella from reproducing.  Rifampin blocks it from reading DNA, septra blocks it from replicating DNA by blocking flolate production.

The only other option is using fluoroquinolones which can treat this in 1-3 months.  I was told to pulse it 5 days on and 5 days off, and take magnesium, Alpha Lipoic Acid, and curcumin to prevent tendon and nerve damage.   The fluoroquinolones will fragment bartonella's DNA, it binds to some DNA stabilizing enzymes in the bacteria and when then the bacterial DNA gets cut. 

 

Posted 8/22/2014 4:30 PM (GMT 0)
Lymepickle - Re: Tier Two of Dr. R bartonella treatment (TreatLyme.net)
I don't know if that's true that combining a macrolide and tetracycline won't work to treat bart. It is one of his recommended treatments.
Also: There is a forum member who is pretty much healed from lyme and bart now - used doxy, added zithro, and lastly is using bactrim to get rid of the last few remaining symptoms. This has happened over a period of 6-7 months I think. I don't know what natural herbs are being used concurrently, though. The bactrim is only for a couple months.
I am currently using doxy/zithro and am thinking of following that route and adding septra if I have Bart.
I just need to make a decision on whether to do Byron White or Buhner for a natural bart to add to the antibiotics.
How was your visit with Dr. C? I'm hoping that my visit goes well and he has some answers for me.
Posted 8/22/2014 4:48 PM (GMT 0)
Ya bartonella is a tricky one.  I have been messaging someone who has Lyme, Bartonella, and Babesia.  Treated Lyme first with IV rochepin, then treated babs.  And now he has been treating Bart daily but it won't go away!  He took 5 abx and anti-bart herbs for a few months AND did the hyperbaric chamber.  He was on rifampin, septra DS, minocycline, clarithromycin, and Plaquenil but still can't get it under control.  He is now using avelox combined with rifampin doxycycline and septra DS.   Bartonella can become chronic like Lyme, and very difficult to treat.  Some LLMDs say treat bartonella first, if you don't it gets too difficult to treat. 

I know you are referring to Chapelle right?  Yes she did a good job treating.  But the tricky part is when do you pull treatment?  She could be symptom free from bartonella for some time.  There is someone who just posted they were completely symptom free, and bartonella came back hard 4 months after being off of antibiotics and treatment.  It concerns me, I guess I maybe one of those people taking A-Bart for the rest of my life...

My appointment was okay, we talked about yes, I definitely have bartonella and that is the main problem.  This is where we have tried everything, the rifampin, the septra DS, and now clarithromycin & Septra DS & minocycline.   He offered to try avelox 5 days on 5 days off and then keep taking minocycline and septra DS.  So I agreed.

He also said yes in the case of bartonella we can usually get it finished if treated right.  Lyme he said we don't know because it gets deep into tissues. 

I got retested for igenex western blot IGG and IGM, got tested for anaplasmosis, and got my CD57 checked again.  I also got blood testing to see how I am holding out on the antibiotics. 

Posted 8/22/2014 4:59 PM (GMT 0)
I'm excited to see Dr. C tomorrow. I've heard that he's not just knowledgeable, but he's kind, calm. I hope so.
I'm going to ask him what blood tests I need to have done - I'm thinking I should have my liver and kidney function tests done to see if I'm handling the antibiotics okay. It's only been 7 weeks, so I should be okay.
Today my feet were definitely hurting when I got out of bed....not excruciating though...and I've had left rib pain for several months ...so I'm thinking he'll say it's Bart.
I thought I had babesia, but I don't think so anymore. I hear with it you're usually pretty ill feeling. Most of my symptoms are pain, i don't feel ill. And my sweats at night weren't drenching...and they've almost gone now.
Yes, it's Chapelle I was talking about...I guess she wouldn't mind mentioning her name...as she posts about it on here anyway. wink
Posted 8/22/2014 6:12 PM (GMT 0)
Actually yes Dr.C is very kind, calm, and very pleasant actually. He is optimistic about treatments too.

Well babesia apparently makes Lyme 3 times worse! Literally in patients who have babesia you will see 3 times as many spirochetes in their blood! Air hunger, and drenching night sweats daily are babesia symptoms. Plus your Lyme is like 3 times worse. Apparently they are among the sickest of patients.
Posted 8/23/2014 1:08 AM (GMT 0)
SooOOoo are you opting for, or getting ready to begin the flouriquinoline route LymePickle? I am seriously considering going with a low-dose cipro and doxy as opposed to rif and doxy (which I already have scripts for)....
Posted 8/23/2014 1:27 AM (GMT 0)
Hey orchid ... I honestly doubt low dose cipro will do it. Factive>Avelox>levaquin>cipro

That's the order of effectiveness of these for bartonella. Levaquin alone is apparently twice as effective for bartonella than cipro. I also know levaquin is probably the worst of the 4. Factive and maybe avelox work at 2 bacterial locations so it improved the effectiveness.

Go for factive, do you live in the states? Factive is the most effective and it is dosed lower so there is less drug related stress in the body. And factive hits mycoplasma and Borrelia too. In fact it is excellent at hitting Lyme, 1-4ug/ml tissue concentrations kills Borrelia, and this drug gets virtually everywhere in the body. Make sure to take magnesium, curcumin, alpha lipoic acid to help protect your body if you take it. Factive is the only Fluorquinolone with excellent treatment results to Lyme. The others do work but are much less effective .

Dosing for bartonella is: 500 mg cipro twice daily, or 500 mg levaquin once daily, or 400 mg avelox once daily, or 320 mg factive daily.

I live in Canada... and unfortunately factive is not available here. I was so disappointed, I just found that out this past Wednesday.

And Fluoroquinolones route... I'm going to hold off on starting that for now... I will make a decision later since all I have is avelox and I wanted factive ... I am unsure if it is worth the risk. I may actually rather do 18 months of rifampin instead lol. (I read someone cured their bartonella and it doesn't come back but after 18 months of rifampin).
Posted 8/23/2014 4:43 AM (GMT 0)
Thx L.P.! You got me thinking about the Factive. I have read before that it is a good lyme & bart drug just the negative effects is what Im concerned about of course.

Also yes Im in the states. I just looked up and being its like $1200 bucks from pharm...I wonder if my insurance co. is going to give me a problem with that? I havent had to fill anything *that expensive as far as a prescription goes.....

Regarding yourself, could you have it ordered from one of the online pharmacies.. or is it not even allowed to enter Canada through customs?
Posted 8/23/2014 4:44 AM (GMT 0)
Oh and I already take those 3 supplements...so thats cool :-) Love my ALA esp.
Posted 8/23/2014 4:11 PM (GMT 0)
I think yes it has the same health concerns as other quinolones, but overall this one is far more effective for the risk. And also the dosage is lower than the others which further reduces the risk.

See here is the thing I researched it, how to get factive here in Canada. And what the deal with it not available, and I found Abbott Canada was going to launch it in Canada back in 2007. Okay so I thought it was available this whole time. Another member on here who cured both her Lyme AND bartonella and has not relapsed took factive for 2 months straight and she had no issues except issues with her skin. And she is done! No Lyme and no Bart left, she literally blasted out the last microbes. And to my amazement she took the factive all alone, no support antibiotic even needed. She said to order from Canada! For cheaper generic form of gemifloxacin. It was from northwestpharmacy. I think I checked there and it was available, but now it's not available! Something is up, I think something happened recently where they stopped it's availablity and really pushed on that. My only thought is they decided well we already have cipro , levaquin, avelox. We don't need another one.
Posted 8/23/2014 6:19 PM (GMT 0)
Lyme pickle, you are making me nervous about bartonella!

Currently on rifampin/doxy, feel good on this combo. I have been taking 600mgs of rifampin since mid April, but the two pills spread apart by three hours. Next week I will take them both at once, and I planned on taking rifampin for about three more months.

How does that sound to you? I know it's doing something cause I feel pretty good on these two drugs where I felt crapty before...
Posted 8/23/2014 8:00 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Reba!  Sorry to make you nervous about bartonella.  I am just speaking from my own experience of being disappointed with the treatment outcome as well as other peoples.  I am also chatting closely with someone who has been battling a bartonella infection that just will not go away!

If you are on a doxy and rifampin.  That is a GOOD treatment!  But the reality is it takes time to work completely!  But as it works your symptoms will get less and less.  You say yourself it is working.  The only thing I am saying is it may relapse!  The rifampin based treatments take time. 

From everything I have read, bartonella needs 2 intracellular abx to work effectively.  1 of either a fluroquinolone, rifampin, or trimethoprim sulfamethoxazole.  And a support antibiotic usually either a tetracycline or macrolide.   Or rifampin could be used with the trimethoprim. 

I would say stick with what is working!  The rifampin treatments do cure people from bartonella, in that yes, every bartonella germ is gone or they will never cause disease in your body again.  But 6 months minimum I believe for rifampin treatments, preferrably 8 months as suggested by many doctors.  And some patients have still said they relapse!  Remember to take something to help your liver with rifampin!  Rifampin is a much more difficult drug for the liver to process and sometimes liver enzymes could go up causing damage and scaring!

The question is, is it really great to be on an antibiotic for like a year (rifampin)?  Or do you take a shortcut and 'cure' it with a couple months of a fluroquinolone and risk permanent life long damage to your nerves and tendons?  See that is my debate. 

Oh as an aside I wanted to mention some people report curing their bartonella with Houttuynia too!  Maybe Houtttuynia tea (3 times a day and consistently every day), rifampin, and a support antibiotic will be my path forward... I may add in Japanese Knotweed too.

Posted 8/24/2014 7:43 AM (GMT 0)
Well thats a bummer its not available at that online pharm no more :-/

...and quoting you on this L.P.

"" The question is, is it really great to be on an antibiotic for like a year (rifampin)? Or do you take a shortcut and 'cure' it with a couple months of a fluroquinolone and risk permanent life long damage to your nerves and tendons? ""


...You got it, this is the Million Dollar Q in my head right now! :-//
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