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Why can't we see Lyme bacteria in blood?

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Posted 3/20/2015 3:04 PM (GMT 0)
Can someone please explain this to me. Why can't my LLMD examine my blood under a microscope for spirochetes? Most other bacterial infections can be seen under a microscope. Why can't Lyme? It just doesn't make sense! Why rely on antibodies?

If it's there, we should be able to see it!

.???? confused
Posted 3/20/2015 3:09 PM (GMT 0)
I wondered the same thing--it has to do with the size, maybe? I've read somewhere that the smaller the bacteria, the tougher to get rid of. Maybe the spirochettes are v.v. small? My sister who is a RN said that in order to see it, you have to add a substance to it, which destroys certain bacterias when added, if I remember correctly. So maybe not all bacteria is the same? Don't know. What does your hubby think? I know, I know, it is not the answer you are looking for. Maybe others will be more helpful.
Posted 3/20/2015 3:13 PM (GMT 0)
Because it hides in the tissues, I think.
Posted 3/20/2015 3:24 PM (GMT 0)
Hiding in the tissues is too simplistic. There would still be some in the blood! Why can't we see it? Why can't we biopsy tissue? I want proof that those b******s are really in my body!
Posted 3/20/2015 3:29 PM (GMT 0)
Technically you could. But when you look under stuff in a microscope you need to stain it if it's a bacteria. Plus such a small amount of blood is used on a stain that chances are the bacteria wouldn't be in that sample.
Posted 3/20/2015 3:33 PM (GMT 0)
I believe that's what fry labs does. You can ask your lyme doc to send your blood there.
Posted 3/20/2015 3:42 PM (GMT 0)
You actually can its called a darkfield, microscope. When I was trying to figure out what was wrong went to a naturopath and he took a drop of blood looked at it under a darkfield and you can actually see them. It's very interesting. They actually look like little worms, the naturopath has studied them for a long time and says he sees all sizes, he ought to know he also has lymes disease. When you take abx he says you can't see them because they go into the tissue.
Posted 3/20/2015 3:56 PM (GMT 0)
You can request a blood culture test from Advanced Labs (not sure if they are the only lab that does this). The test is fairly new - they look at your blood for spirochetes.



http://www.advanced-lab.com/spirochete.php
Posted 3/20/2015 3:57 PM (GMT 0)
Spirochetes are usually much longer than they are wide, and often their width is below the resolving power of the light microscope. For example, Borrelia may have a length of 20-30um but a width of only 0.2-0.3um. Hence, most spirochetes cannot be viewed using conventional light microscopy. Dark-field microscopy must be used to view spirochetes. Dark field microscopy utilizes a special condenser which directs light toward an object at a angle, rather than from the bottom. As a result, particles or cells are seen as light objects against a dark background.

(I copied that :-))
Posted 3/20/2015 4:53 PM (GMT 0)
So why, then, don't most hospitals or major labs (like quest or lab corp) use dark field microscopy??

Why do they rely on stupid antibodies?
Posted 3/20/2015 5:38 PM (GMT 0)
The more "high volume" a test is, the more likely its done FULLY automated, in an actual blood testing machine. These things are quite impressive to watch, about the size of a fridge on its side. The little viles feed into the thing, analyzing, mixing other test chemicals, spinning ect..

Machines can find antibodies with the right chemical mixed in there. Standardized tests from Quest and labcorp are all about simplicity with minimal people involved.

Their non standard tests they send out to some other "hands on" lab, and it takes a while.
Posted 3/20/2015 5:39 PM (GMT 0)
Dark field microscopy is very expensive, I imagine.
Posted 3/20/2015 5:47 PM (GMT 0)
But it's a no brainier! IF you really can see those darn bugs with dark field microscopy, then that should be standard testing!! DUH! I seriously don't get this! This makes no sense to me. Sorry for being so dense, but I just don't get this.

AND.......I happen to be a biologist!

Is the microscopy not accurate enough? Is it difficult to actually get spirochetes in a small sample of blood?

If you take abx, can you still get that lab done?
...
Posted 3/20/2015 6:03 PM (GMT 0)
Evaluating spirochetes takes a highly trained person - not an average lab tech.

If you look at You Tube videos of spirochetes under a dark field microscope, it is very difficult to tell the difference between different types of spirochetes, such as Borrelia versus syphillis. They both look like little squiggles to me! Very much alike! The average person will not be able to tell the difference.

As for the Advanced Labs culture test, I would think you would have to stop antibiotics for awhile before testing since antibiotics kill off the spirochetes. The test is fairly expensive and takes awhile. If they don't find spirochetes in the first 10 days, they grow the blood for 8 weeks and recheck.
Posted 3/20/2015 7:15 PM (GMT 0)
For those with $, a spinal fluid Advanced culture is the king.
Posted 3/20/2015 7:38 PM (GMT 0)
I can answer several questions on this thread. Why don't physicians use a dark field microscopy testing to identify borrelia? The answer will surprise you........it's illegal. Not in a legal since, but insurances will not reimburse for it because it is not proven in the literature. They often use it in Europe. It is very inexpensive and easy to do. But we all know what happens to physicians who treat "outside the book." I bought a research grade darkfield microscope and used it to determine what I have. Borrelia is like my protozoan, they don't like to stay in the blood very long. It took many blood samples before I could find a protozoan. Borrelia is actually easier to find than the intracellular protozoans.
Posted 3/20/2015 7:44 PM (GMT 0)
GH....

So, a typical blood sample provided by the patient may not contain enough bacteria to see it under the scope??? It's hit or miss??
Posted 3/20/2015 8:15 PM (GMT 0)
The longer you have it, the less of it is in the blood, because it learns to seek refuge from your immune system- which is mostly in blood. So it leaves the blood and hides in other fluid and white tissue, nerves, some organs. Remember this is a smart bacteria. It hides from killer cells that cruise in your blood.

But the longer you have lyme , the more likely its in your spinal fluid, even fluid in knees. I think it was Advanced labs that even had a check box for knee fluid on the sample info sheet for this reason..
Posted 3/20/2015 8:29 PM (GMT 0)
The famous Dr. B says Borrelia doesn't stay in blood very long. It goes to the brain. My question would be, how long does it take for it to get to the brain? Also, once in the brain, how long it takes for it to do damage there? Since some of the infected people get sick quickly and have lots of neuro symptoms but others do not, I guess there is no straight answer.
Posted 3/20/2015 8:57 PM (GMT 0)

Utahgal said...
GH....

So, a typical blood sample provided by the patient may not contain enough bacteria to see it under the scope??? It's hit or miss??


Yes, that is correct. It could take multiple samples and a lot of time on the scope to see them. Most labs won't spend that much time looking even if darkfield was allowed.
Posted 3/20/2015 10:35 PM (GMT 0)

Utahgal said...
Can someone please explain this to me. Why can't my LLMD examine my blood under a microscope for spirochetes? Most other bacterial infections can be seen under a microscope. Why can't Lyme? It just doesn't make sense! Why rely on antibodies?

If it's there, we should be able to see it!

.???? confused


You cant see lyme under a regular light microscope because, it has something do with the shape of the bacteria. Only darkfield microscopes can see spirochetes, like lyme.
Posted 3/20/2015 10:52 PM (GMT 0)
I knew a dark field scope was necessary. I just didn't understand WHY there aren't more hospitals and labs that look for Lyme.

I gather, from GH's response, that it's a "needle in a haystack" sort of thing. And time is money.

..
Posted 3/20/2015 11:55 PM (GMT 0)
Seems like a no brainer to me too utahgal.. I agree it doesn't make sense, but, unfortunately that's the way it is with lyme.

I have a lot of experience with the darkfield microscopic testing. It takes a trained eye to find the spirochetes .. We've been to two different practitioners, one who helped us get started with herbs to get rid of parasites, but never saw the spirochetes, the other who found the spirochetes..

Actually, my whole family has been to the second guy about 4 times over a 2 year span...he found the spirochetes every time we went. So, 4 people tested and spirochetes were found every visit.
We haven't been there in a couple of years, can't wait to go back and see how good our blood looks now!

It's all about $$$, right?!!
Posted 3/21/2015 1:24 AM (GMT 0)
Candle:

Where is the second ND located? Thanks!
Posted 3/21/2015 1:39 AM (GMT 0)
Simela,

Email me :)
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