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Is there another way to skin this cat besides Rifampin

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Posted 3/28/2015 9:35 PM (GMT 0)
I have been on Rifampin for almost 2 mos. I am also on Zith for 8 mos + herbal tinctures.

I always try to hang in there with the herx to give my body time to adjust, but I don't know if I can or will be able to adjust to rifampin…..and I'm only on 150mg 2x day. I really don't think I can make it to 300mg.

Are there any other ABX I replace the rifampin with for Bart?

I'm supposed to add Doxy to this combo but wanted to let herx level off before adding another medication.

I had some bad days with Zith but within a month I could tell I was starting to have more good days than bad.

I'm getting discouraged and looking for options. cry
Posted 3/28/2015 9:50 PM (GMT 0)
There are the flouroquinolones - but they can have some serious side effects.

Also Bactrim DS coupled with biaxin is an option that is in Dr. M.R's guidelines.

A forum member did Bactrim plus Zithromax.
Posted 3/28/2015 10:18 PM (GMT 0)
Hey JM65,

Are you open to a natural alternative? I've been on a treatment that's natural and definitely targets bart.

If you're interested you can email me or I can post it here for you.

:)
Posted 3/28/2015 10:22 PM (GMT 0)
Candleinthewind - it would be good if you could post here please, so we can all see.
Posted 3/28/2015 10:28 PM (GMT 0)
Thank you
Posted 3/28/2015 10:38 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks Girlie I will read Dr M.R. guidelines so I will have some ideas to bounce of my Dr when I see her next month

I was doing so well on the Zith/Plaquenil combo. I had started doing some gardening and cooking, things I hadn't done in years. Felt like a member of the human race and so hopeful.

But then I added 10 drops of Cryptolepis tincture and by the evening I got Bart feet so bad I had to crawl to the kitchen to feed my cat.

I didnt even know I had Bart! !0 drops of Crypto brought it to the surface. Bart apparently does not like Crypto

I guess I could drop the Crypto and try and hang in there with Rifampin to see if that would make much difference adjusting.

I kind of hate to get rid of something that Bart reacts so strongly to.

The funny thing is I had been doing 30 drops of CSA tincture from Woodland for about 3 mos and it never stirred up Bart.

The complexity of it all makes my brain numb to the point where I can't muster the brain power needed to
dive in and do research….but you guys know about that problem

When you really need your thinking cap, and your life depends on it, its not available

I'm then left with a feeling of helplessness and rising anxiety.
Posted 3/28/2015 10:45 PM (GMT 0)
jm65 - If you're herxing from cryptolepis - why not keep on that? You could also add Houttuynia and Japanese Knotweed (also part of Buhner's protocol for bart).

I have been on bart herbs - but not sure if it was doing anything.

I don't really like the bart antibiotic choices though.

Rifampin - will probably be hard on my liver - my ALT is already raised from Tinidazole.
I don't want to do levquin (flouroquinolone) - don't like the risk of tendon rupture.
Bactrim DS - kinda scares me because of the risk (though small) of Steven Johnson syndrome.

But, I guess all antibiotics carry some risks.
Posted 3/28/2015 10:50 PM (GMT 0)
candleinthewind Thanks for the link. I have heard of that protocol. I followed a couple of discussions about it but I don't think I can change my entire direction right now to really take it all in. Again the brain power

"When" I feel better I will read more details about it.

Just skimming over it it reminded me that I didn't post another thing in my protocol. Silver hydrosol.

Seems quite a few LLMD as well as my own doc are using it to drive ABX deeper in to the cell.

Hum…. that gives me another thought in my quest to decided about what to do about rifampin….I could quit the silver, perhaps I am not strong enough yet to be driving ABX deeper.
Posted 3/28/2015 11:06 PM (GMT 0)
My friend's daughter can't handle abx so well. She has lyme and bart. She was just prescribed "A-Bart" for bartonella. Not sure anthing about it, just thought I toss it our there for you.

My son is on Rifampin 150mg, once a day so far.... he won't talk about anything and has candida and is on Candex for that, so it's possible he is herxing from doxy for lyme and the other two, all at once... :(
Posted 3/28/2015 11:21 PM (GMT 0)
Girlie Heres my "thinking" on the subject, which could be extremely flawed.
I am 70 and have had lyme and co. for 40 yrs. My lyme NP is retiring in Sept this year.

When she goes I will be pretty much on my own. I have all of Buhners books and actually did his Lyme protocol
2 or 3 yrs ago for 8 mos. I did well on it. Then life threw me a curve ball and I had to stop for 6 mos.

When I was in a position to concentrate, I wanted to start again I decided to get some consultations from Julie, Buhner's partner. This was about 1 1/2 yrs ago She was treating me for Babesia, Lyme & CPN.

I don't think her approach was good for me though. She had me on about 20 different tinctures all at the same time, and I crashed worse than I ever have before or since. I was in bed for 3 mos with my classic crash symptoms.

Besides brain fog, it was 3 mos of fevers, chills, glands swollen as big as golf balls, sweating etc.
Everything in my life came to a halt, and it was so scary because I live alone and have no help.

Its funny you would think with that many herbals,including Crypt. the Bart feet would have surfaced then.

I guess the 8 mos of Zith,& Plaq, Then about 3 weeks of Rifampin set me up for the Crypt. to be the last straw for the Bart.

Anyway I went back to my Dr after sort of recovering from that extreme crash and between the 2 of us decided this was my last chance to give ABX a shot for about 1 1/2 yrs. before she retired and I lost access to the medical professionals.

My intention was after 1 1/2 yrs on herbals and ABX once she left I would continue on with my herbal tinctures. Something I can do on my own with the help of books and forums.

My hope was that by doing the ABX and herbals together for a 1 1/2 yrs. I would have beat it back enough to give my immune system a fighting chance and to continue to make progress on herbals only.

Now I feel a little stuck in a Rifampin quandary and just floundering around for the next step that will move me a little bit forward
Posted 3/28/2015 11:25 PM (GMT 0)
What about the Cowden protocol? Many seem to have had much success on that. I was going there next after abx...
Posted 3/28/2015 11:27 PM (GMT 0)
One other thing….given my age and how long I have had these nasty bugs, I am not trying to wipe them out completely. I can understand someone younger who has not had lyme as long as I have having that intention.

All I want to do is beat it down, build my immune system to the point where it can join in the effort and keep it backed into a corner for however much time I have left on this earth with herbals and supplements.
Posted 3/28/2015 11:41 PM (GMT 0)
Lovemychildren I can handle some ABX…I just have to figure out if I can handle any of the ones that will go after Bart.

I am familiar with all the various herbal protocols, but chose Buhner's because its affordable, & he does not try and sell anything to you but his books, and because he does have books on all of these issues, he is putting tools into peoples hands.

I appreciate him doing that because it means even people who can't afford a LLMD or even a lyme herbalist
can still have access to all the incredible research he does…….it means the door won't be totally shut for them.

I am sure Cowden and all the other top Lyme herbalist have good protocols and I know from all the forums I am on that they can really help people, but I do find it a bit irritating that its just more good stuff

on the long list of treatments that are only for those that can afford them.

I do well on Buhner herbals and I respect him, so I stick with him. Less confusing too than jumping around too much.

I hope your son does well on Rifampin as it really seems to be one of the best ABX for Bart.
Posted 3/29/2015 3:20 AM (GMT 0)
Try the chronic tonic, I will give you the link. Traveler on here did it and she got rid of Lyme after having it 40 yrs also.
http://www.mistymeadows.org/wendydocs/Lyme%20Disease.pdf

I'm on rifampin and it really kicked my butt, my LD started me on 600 mg and after herxing for 15 days I finally called and he told me to just take one - 300 mg per day for 2 weeks then add the second one back in. Also taking Zithromax with it.

Good luck and keep us posted.
Posted 3/29/2015 3:44 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks Revive While I was doing searches I came upon Travelers recipe for Chronic Tonic…..got me very curious.
Will do some more searches to see if anyone else has tried it and had the same success Traveller did.

I notice you take Xylitol May I ask what you are using it for. I use it in small amounts for a variety of things.

Yikes 600mg if it doesn't kill you it will surely heal you. Wish I could stick with it but I have to weigh how many bad days to good days and so far its not looking good.

I will say I have had a couple of outstanding days since I started it which got me really excited…..all the symptoms went away that you get with rifampin and I thought I was turning a corner……..then it slammed me again

Im getting close to thinking about dropping the silver and hang on to the rifampin a bit longer Maybe the herx will ease up.
Posted 3/29/2015 3:00 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks JM65. I have nothing but the dr. right now. Will look into Bruhner, did not realize price differences, just saw a post last week saying how excellent Cowden was, but I did see it's about $3000 for a year - ouch.

This should all be so much easier!
Posted 3/29/2015 4:49 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Jm,
Honestly, there isn't anyone else that I'm aware of that has made the Chronic Tonic like I did and has been able to report that they are healed. I only know of one other person (Elmesanoya) that is using it right now and is healing well on it. If you haven't seen this thread, it might be helpful to you:
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3244272

It's got a lot of herbs and most people would rather use and work in one herb at a time. The Chronic Tonic already has things like red root include to help the lymph system continue to flow well and do it's job and more. You can find why each herb was included (it's actions) starting on page 70 of this pdf:www.mistymeadows.org/wendydocs/Lyme Disease.pdf

I don't blame anyone for wanting to take it slower or choosing other options, but when I got reinfected, I turned back to the Chronic Tonic and have now healed a second time from Lyme disease!

For treating Bartonella, all I did was add in Houttuynia, which you can read about here if you are interested:www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2887463

And by the way - you're not that old!! You still have a lot of life left to live! :-)
Posted 3/29/2015 4:52 PM (GMT 0)
And for anyone that is looking for that link that Candleinthewind posted, I had to take it down. I'm very sorry for this, but each time that protocol is listed on this forum, the person who created it returns and is nasty to everyone on this forum. We have no idea why he targets this forum like he does (you would think he would have better, more interesting things to do), but he continues to return and refuses to follow the rules of this forum. So we have taken to being defensive and proactive and now remove his posts and mentions of his protocol.

I'm sorry for this, especially to Candleinthewind who may not have realized this, as it could have been a much better relationship with that person. Many come here and all need to follow the rules here.
Posted 3/29/2015 5:25 PM (GMT 0)
Lovemychildren I don't want to dissuade you from Cowden, I think its an excellent herbal protocol As we all know lyme &co. is complicated and made more complicated my each individuals genetics, other health issues,

immune system. Thats one reason why its like picking through a bucket of worms to figure out what will work for you.

I spend a lot of time over on Lymenet and there are many people there doing all herbal protocols as well as herbals plus ABX, and the one thing thats immediately apparent is how well one protocol will do wonders for

someone, but then some else will post say it did nothing for them.

I decided on Buhner based partly on practicality and finances……..and that there are books to guide you.
Posted 3/29/2015 5:43 PM (GMT 0)
Don't forget the wealth of information on his website as well!! He answered questions about other herbs even!! Have you been over there to do some reading as well?
buhnerhealinglyme.com/

and he has a Facebook page as well:
/www.facebook.com/stephen.buhner
Posted 3/29/2015 7:23 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks JM65!
Posted 3/29/2015 8:47 PM (GMT 0)
JM65 xylitol and Lactoferrin for biofilms but I don't notice anything from it.

I am in my 2nd month of rifampin and I am doing better, the first month was tough and probably part of the 2 nd month. I don't sleep well several nights a week since rifampin and I was sleeping well since I started treatment over a yr ago.

Hang in there and hope you feel better soon.
Posted 6/8/2015 2:08 PM (GMT 0)
Wanted to update this post. I went off the Rifampin shortly after this post. I was getting so very tired. I found out that can be a side effect of Rifampin.

Apparently this happens because it processes cortisol out of your body more quickly and that can cause adrenal crashes.

Another friend who had been on Rifampin for a year also got extremely tired and when she had her adrenals tested she had completely flat lined.

Thought it was important to post this for others doing searches on Rifampin.

It was also a PIA to take scheduling wise as it does not interact well with lots of other meds, supplements and herbs.

I did add Doxy and have been on it a little over 2 mos…..that has had its own set of issues, but will start another thread on that. I will say it has given me some amazingly clear brain fog free days.

I also went back to 2x a day on the silver, added a couple more herbal tinctures and added back my Plaquenil.

I am losing my LLMD in sept. and will be on my own. I will probably continue with all my herbal tinctures
an add in rowingmom & travelers teas but won't have the option of ABX at that point.

Tomorrow I see my doc and will discuss if its worth it to add another ABX to the Zith, Doxy & Plaquenil since I will only have 4mos to be on it.

We have talked about the addition Omnicef or ceftin.

Post Edited (JM65) : 6/8/2015 8:13:37 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/8/2015 4:07 PM (GMT 0)
Zhang HH2 - Houtunyia Double Dose - Hepapro for Bartonella
Posted 6/8/2015 4:21 PM (GMT 0)
I do take Houttuynia tincture already, not Zhang…no way I can afford his stuff.

Sort of feel like my Babesia symptoms are creeping up on me again lately….some air hunger and night sweats….during this time I have been focusing on Bart.

I already have some of the Babesia herbals in my protocol. I may need to take a closer look and see if there is something I nee to add for Babesia.

Ya know how it is with these co's. Like bratty kids if one feels the other is getting to much attention, time to kick up a fuss.
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