L-arginine and EBV - question

I don't know what your missing, but I am too!!! Every time I've tried to use arginine in any form (L-arginine & magnesium arginate), I get hit hard with EBV symptoms and it takes me weeks to recover - if I catch it quickly!! I need to then supplement with L-lysine for weeks or months depending on how quickly I catch it!!

For me I just am learning all the things that arginine is used in (usually the hard way! LOL!) and am trying to avoid it. I seem to be the odd ball in a lot of things!

I'm still hesitant to take it because I have high IgG titers for 2 viruses.

I've been taking Monolaurin TID since the beginning of this year and it is effective against viruses but, I'm still on the fence lol

As you can see from me quoting Buhner, he considers L-arginine a big player in babesia and bartonella treatment....and it sounds like it is. For people interested in a slightly-less involved protocol, he still includes L-arginine.

Dan-Shen appears to have many of the same actions - the most important one is to increase NO levels in the blood (both babs and bart deplete them). I'm taking that but, again, the l-arginine just seems so good.

Arginine is a component of many, many foods...

Here's the long version:

nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000089000000000000000.html


And, here's a general idea:

www.healthline.com/health/healthy-high-arginine-foods#7

Post Edited (cd3764) : 9/16/2015 1:14:04 PM (GMT-6)

Thanks Trav and CD!

CD~
From a brief look, I see what you mean about L-Arginine. It looks like it does a lot to combat Babesia. In my opinion, it is not worth it for me. Everyone is different and has different priorities. I have so much fatigue that I could have EBV. I'm not sure.

It looks like there are so many other herbal options too. I believe it is best to take a multi-herbal approach in any event. It looks like he mentions L-citrulline. I'm not sure if that carries the same risks as L-Arginine. Dan Shen looks great. It looks like there are a number of others as well. CDK inhibitors look crucial. Artemisinin does that. Yay! We have to look at the big picture. I know L-Argininine looks tempting though!

Thanks for the links!


Trav~
Thanks!

I'm happy you figured out the magnesium arginate! it is always wonderful when we figure out what is aggravating our symptoms so we can stop it!

I have problems with spinach too. I thought it might be the oxalates and / or histamine inducement. I will have to look into the arginine aspect.

A lot of people are into green smoothies for health benefits. However, ingredients like spinach and spirulina seem to have side effects if you're sensitive to histamines, oxalates and arginine (thanks!).

I need to look into this some more. Thanks!

A couple of years ago our LLMD prescribed l-arginine to be taken along with abx but I opted out of using it with K. I still have the bottle and am sometimes temped to use it. We do use low doses of l-lysine fairly frequently.

I wonder what would happen if we supplemented both?

Hi Sniogra

Ironically, I was reading your thread yesterday and it got me thinking about l-arginine once more :)

I haven't been taking it because I do have high IgG titers EBV. I've tested positive on and off for HPV (as do a large percentage of adults) and I'm currently negative. I had chicken pox as a kid.

I'm apprehensive about viral reactivation.....I certainly don't need a case of the shingles, etc.

However, I've been taking Monolaurin since January to help with my Lyme and it's also effective against many viruses including shingles, EBV and HPV:

www.inspirednutrition.com/list-of-illnesses-monolaurin-works-on.html

I plan on taking Monolaurin for the rest of my life and in slightly higher doses during flu season. In fact, my husband just started on it in hopes of cold sores prevention.

And, now that you got me thinking about l-arginine once more, I did some quick research on l-lysine. The "Considerations" paragraph of the following link is something anyone taking abx and considering l-lysine supplementation might want to research further:

healthyeating.sfgate.com/benefits-taking-llysine-6478.html

I'm no longer on abx and, once again, I'm finding l-arginine tempting.

Additional quick research resulted in the link below that implicates the use of l-lysine concurrently with l-arginine.

It seems that taking l-lysine will help keep the l-arginine in the blood where it can increase NO levels which, in turn, can make the blood inhospitable to blood-borne infections such as Babesia and Bartonella (this is my logical deduction and the basis of Buhner's l-argnine recommendation - not sure why he doesn't also recommend l-lysine). See the 2nd paragraph under the bold print subtitle:

www.aminoacid-studies.com/areas-of-use/menopause.html

I think I might be off the fence and will trial a combination of l-lysine and l-arginine...

Do you have any research you'd like to share?

I will most definitely share, Trav and can definitely understand your position. Would you mind sharing just how quick your response was....and what made it intense?

Ironically, Buhner recommends 2000mg l-arginine TID for the Babesia protocol in his latest book. However, in the Materia Medica, he lists the dosage as 1 or 2 500mg capsules up to TID.

Well, I just ordered 500mg capsules of each and will start 500mg of each BID...soon but, not now :)

I know my mild symptoms aren't an indication of my infection load but, starting slowly always makes sense ;)

I will hold off on starting both supplements until after I get through the next 10 days. I just started my next artemisinin pulse today and I will be caring for both of my very young grandchildren tomorrow. I might just find myself not taking artemisinin for the rest of the weekend if I herx too much today :( I'm going to be optimistic - especially since I did OK with my last round of artemisinin.

And, I have a big work obligation on 10/19 that will require driving during rush hour both ways and many hours attending a symposium. I need to be able to get through it all lol

Ahhh...the challenges of juggling treatment and life lol

Sniogra - would you be willing to compare notes as we move forward?

Well for me, the effects were felt in just a matter of days - I don't believe I made it even a week. But it could be that I was getting enough through my diet too.

I did see in that first article that it was only a week long study - interesting results!

CD- I will definetely keep notes on how I do w/ the L-arginine. It looks like L-lysine might be beneficial to take along w/ the L-arginine. I saw something about the ratio of lysine to arginine being important since they do compete against each other.

I'm looking at Buhner's Mycoplasma and Bart book and he says, "In addition to replacing L-arginine scavenged by mycoplasmal organisms, this amino acid is somewhat toxic to those that do not scavenge it, and importantly it acts to remove ammonia from the body. Ammonia buildup is common with many species of mycoplasma and can cause severe problems in the CNS. " What does he mean by it being toxic to those who do not scavenge it? I guess I'm confused by that statement...my lyme brain has been in full effect the past few days.

A year ago, I had a micronutrient test done w/ Spectracell Labs and it showed I had a deficiency in Serine, Glutamine, and Asparagine. I'm wondering if a full spectrum amino acid supplement would be beneficial? I'm also wondering if taking something like whey protein could act as a substitute?

It's interesting that you said you've had anxiety as a herx on Buhner's herbs. I also herx about every 2 or 3 days in the evening with unexplained anxiety. It would be great to see if the amino acids would help alleviate that symptom. I will also look into the monolaurin you are taking.

Yesterday was the first day I took 1000 mg and last night I did not have any hot flashes. I saw something about arginine boosting progesterone levels as well. I'm talking w/ my Integrative doc. today and see what she has to say about it. Keep you all posted.

Sniogra

Actually, my original research on the concept of concurrent l-lysine and l-arginine (done today once this thread got going again :) was showing that equal amounts of l-lysine and l-arginine were optimal.

I believe Buhner is trying to say that L-arginine supplementation will replace the L-arginine that mycoplasma destroys/uses/whatever lol.....and L-arginine is toxic to the bacteria/protozoa that don't use L-arginine.

Basically, this is his explanation of how l-arginine supplementation works against Babesia and Bartonella....it makes the blood toxic to them because it increases NO levels.

I think I'd be researching like crazy before opting to supplement amino acids. I've come across enough information about them over the years to recognize that things can go badly with inappropriate supplementation.

Truly, getting nutrients from my diet appeals to me more. Whey protein has been a steady ingredient in my lunchtime smoothies since 2011....well before Lyme. I'm confident this has helped me with my Lyme and Co's battle.

I'm soo happy to hear that you didn't have any hot flashes! I, too, read something along the lines of what you shared.

I had concerns about it affecting my thyroid hormone replacement dose requirements (constantly changing since I started treatment for Lyme). An increase in my progesterone level has the capacity to make my thyroid function improve....which would mean I might need a thyroid dose decrease lol

Ironically, I'd read that l-arginine doesn't disrupt endocrine hormone function:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10711861

Geee....we really are guinea pigs with l-arginine.

I am really interested in whatever your Integrative doc has to say and truly appreciate whatever you're willing to share.

Yeah....taking them both together is questionable - maybe the Integrative doc can shed some light on it all.

Thanks so much for posting on this thread. I think we (and possibly others) are going to learn some good stuff :)

I have been taking L-arginine for over six months with no problem at all. But I do take L-lysine with it. L-arginine supplementation was originally recommended to me for detox by a natural health practitioner that is very good with cancer treatment with Rife machines who has been doing more and more Lyme treatment.

I have not had any trouble with viruses except possibly one time, and that was when I had stopped taking L-lysine with it for a couple days.

There is NO DOUBT that L-arginine supplementation helps me feel better overall! I didn't know until a couple months ago that Buhner recommends it in his Bart and Babs protocols. So, whether it is helping kill the bugs or helping detox them, I know for sure that I FEEL BETTER taking these. I know 3 other people who supplement with L-arginine who say it helps them feel better, too.

I take 3000mg of L-arginine and 1200mg of L-lysine 2x daily on an empty stomach.