The band 41 debate

Due to another thread on here and my personal interest in band 41, I wanted to share and debate some of the research I have found on flagellated bacteria.

Below is an interesting article on human pathogenic flagellated bacteria. Would it make sense that all of these would cross-react on WB? A few of the ones that stood out are: Salmonella, E. Coli, H. Pylori and also BARTONELLA BACILLIFORM. Also, if one was exposed to salmonella or e. coli in the past would they show up on IGG band 41?

www.pnas.org/content/102/26/9247.full

Another interesting tidbit: H. pylori infects the gastric mucosa of approximately two-thirds of the world's population (www.cdc.gov/ulcer/files/hpfacts.PDF

All 3 of my children have band 41 on IGG. My son has 41, 66. Oldest daughter 41, 58. And my youngest just 41. I am not sure if I have ever seen a WB result without 41.

Please let me know your thoughts or disprove that these bacteria would not cross-react with 41.

Post Edited (kyo07) : 12/5/2015 10:54:22 AM (GMT-7)

Yes I have 31 as well and did the epitope test. It seems no test is perfect and they all cross-react, so how am I to be certain that the epitope test does not cross react as well? If it was such a perfect test for Lyme and band 31 then why not offer it right away? Seems fishy to me.

I hate the fact that I am still questioning my diagnosis even though my symptoms match up. I don't know if it's my instincts or if I'm just in denial.

Kyo... I got the exact same bands as you. Is your 31 kDa been identified as Lyme specific? according to igenex, band 31 can also cross react with other proteins that are 31 kDa but not the one Lyme makes so another test is used to confirm if the 31 kDa is Lyme or not. Also I had the 58+ which I think is from
Bart, and 39IND is one that Bart makes. It's IND as it maybe a different protein than Lymes 39, but it is similar in weight. Or it could be a very weak immune response.

What are your symptoms? The further I look back at the course of my illness, the more I question if i'm a "bartonella" only case. And thinking I have had Lyme is only holdings my treatment back. When I could have just been focusing on Bart which I should have been doing the whole time.

"During a 1-year interval 2403 patients were referred to our department for B. burgdorferi serology. Sixty-three patients had repetitive positive tests for IgM anti-p41 antibodies and negative tests for anti-p41 IgG antibodies. "

63 out of 2403 means about 2.6%. Their data implies that not all people test positive for p41, but yes there are certainly more people than just the ones with lyme.

www.researchgate.net/publication/12048921_Diagnostic_and_Biological_Significance_of_Antip41_IgM_Antibodies_against_Borrelia_burgdorferi

I'll read a bit more about cross reactivity, i found on one local lab WB info page it can cross react with syphilis

It is hard to give an exact answer to what 41 means and you need to look at the whole clinical picture.
My Igenex test results were
IFA negative, WB negative
IGM 18+,31++,41 ind 58+
IGG 31 ind, 41+.

All of the bands can either cross react and/or are not Lyme specific so a negative. I never had the epitope test done and had no idea of how I could have Lyme. I didn't remembered any tick bite and live in an area with a very low incidence. I was completely clueless to it being Lyme and never in a million years would have thought that's what it could be.
In the end my LLND and I diagnosed it as Lyme because it is the only thing that makes sense with my clinical symptoms, lab results and a positive response to antibiotics.
It wasn't until later while looking at pictures of ticks in Iowa (where my symptoms started) that my memory was jogged and I positively identified nymph deer ticks as what was on my dog. During this time she developed a rash that matches the Lyme rash for dogs and hip arthritis. I had what I thought were mosquito/flea bites that for some reason were more inflamed than normal and a little while later symptoms like wicked anxiety and IBS set in. It is true that hindsight is 20/20 but believe me before I remembered the ticks I had no idea of where this came from and doubted my diagnosis all the time.
I also tested positive for H.Pylori and treated it before I was tested for Lyme so I kept thinking that maybe the H.Pylori wasn't eradicated even though I had long lasting positive results for some of my symptoms, LLND says it is a co-infection.

LP - I should clarify I do have a tad bit of knee pain but nothing terrible like lots of folks on here. Some palps, upper arms cramping, few night sweats, very fine tremor, spacey feeling. Night-time numbness has been consistent.

kyo07 said...
Lyme Pickle - Yes, I was positive on epitope test. But if it is such a perfect test for identifying Lyme, why is it not used as such? I am sure if most with band 31 knew there was a test that could 98% tell them they have Lyme disease with no cross-reaction it would be used a lot and word would get out about it. I may see if I can talk to someone at Igenex about it. Even though I was positive on that test they still consider me IND.

it depends on your test results. In my case, i had band 31++, but the Epitope test wasn't needed because I also had Band 83-93+ .
It would be a waste of money to do the Epitope test because I was positive.
The criteria is that you need two bands + from the 'list'. But, if you only have bands 31 and 41 from the list, you are IND.
Many of us who have LD don't agree with that.
In my husband's case - his only + bands from the list were 31 and 41 (with several IND's).
The Epitope test showed band 31 was indeed Bb - and my husband's results changed to positive.

You said your's was still IND after the confirmation of band 31? We got a second result sheet sent - saying positive.

After all that, we need to remember that the tests are faulty....and the diagnosis should be clinical.

Girlie yes... I'm just saying maybe I got a Bart only infection, and 99% of
My symptoms were Bart. I found out even the knee aches can be Bart. All the symptoms kyo is talking about are the same symptoms that I have as well... Buzzing etc, the knee pain.

My illness was either 90% Bart 10% Lyme, 95% Bart and 5% Lyme, 99% Bart and 1% Lyme, or 100% Bart and 0% Lyme. I'm just trying to figure out which one it is.

ky07 - Where does it say that your overall result is still IND?

When my husband did the Epitope test on band 31, we got one test result back and it just said POSITIVE.

I think that's the point of doing that extra test. If you had IND before it, and they do the test on band 31 and it's positive, then why would you still be IND? It wouldn't really make sense to do that test.

What information did you get saying that it's still IND after the epitope test?
Because we didn't get that in my husband's case.


LP - I think my Bartonella was my dominant infection. I wish Dr. C. had figured that out with his knowledge/expertise before we did 9 1/2 months of Lyme only abx. Over time, with research...and then the webinar with Dr. M's treatment of bart...I realized that was most likely the case.
But, I do think I have Lyme, too. Maybe even Babs.

My blood work for the past few months since treating Bart - shows my bilirubin in range. I had high bilirubin since I was a teenager - and was told it's Gilbert's syndrome. - a fairly 'benign' condition. Never had to treat it...
So, my theory (my NEW theory, that is..lol) that one of the many cats that bit me throughout my childhood - gave me bart...and my immune system was in the most part keeping it in check (except for the raised bilirubin).
Then, I got Lyme in 2013, and along with the stress I was undergoing, my immune system could no longer handle it all.

Also, some symptoms have resolved just on the Lyme treatment. I was taking bart herbs for a couple of months, but not long enough for symptom resolution IMO - so I do attribute those symptoms as Lyme symptoms.

No you guys what I'm saying here, is it could be bart infection and only that. I have simply been confusing some symptoms with lyme and that has been doing nothing but setting me back in my treatment. i had no no herx... I got the herx but it was a bart herx, and I was told bart doesn't herx so I believed that in the beginning.

I looked at what antibodies bart brings up. And it does bring up 41++, 58 +, and then there is one like 30.5 or something that is just under 31, so it sometimes brings up some response in the lyme western blot. Also I talked to someone who has a bart only infection. She had lots of 41.

I think it's a big part of the controversy. I had igenex negative test. Also bart can cause a low CD57 as well.

Either way I am blaming all my symptoms on bart now. There is only one symptom that could be lyme... Like a floaty feeling in my brain. I don't really know.

Bart just doesn't die very easily.... I don't understand what makes this bacteria so strong? It must have a thick cell wall. I know it co-evolved living in animals for millions of years.

Maybe that's why some cats are so irritable?

I don't really know where i found that I was just googling Bartonella bacilliformsis, bart western blot, I googled so much. One I found the strains of Bart that have flagella. There is just a few strains actually.

Bart is brutal... You have to treat for 6 months straight minimum not missing a single dose of abx, taking abx every 12 hours. If you miss a dose consider yourself back at day 1. At least that's
How I see it now. I have taken so many abx, I'm losing faith that I can beat this. I don't know how this bacteria can still be living inside me.

LP - I'm not that fussy with the timing of my Bart meds.
I started off taking them 12 hours apart - or close to it - so 8:00 a.m and 8:00 p.m,
Then I watched the webinar and the Dr, said twice daily - morning and around dinner time - so I discussed this with Dr.C. and asked if I could take my morning one at 8 or 9 a.m. and my second one around 6 or 7 . Or should they be 12 hours apart - he said it was fine to take the second one less than 12 hours from first one.

So that means it is unbalanced - i.e. less than 12 hours .... then more than twelve hours.
Hopefully that won't matter. It's more convenient for me.

Also I have missed a dose in the first month or so because of herxing and so far I haven't slipped back....knock on wood.
Hopefully I haven't ruined my chances of clearing bart.
I have added back in bart herbs and am slowly titrating to higher doses.

kyo07 - I have a bipolar cat, too. She's like " Pet me please....pet me again...okay that's enough...one more time and Im going to bite you"

kyo07 said...
Ok, this is really eye-opening because I have had countless cats my entire life too and tried to tame wild cats as a kid and got bit/scratched all the time. I never once thought that maybe this is from a cat and I got Lyme just in the past few years. That is probably why it's dominant since it's the oldest infection. My current cat is nasty and bites too. I joke because I think he's bi-polar and one minute he's nice and the next he goes after me to bite.

This is where the asymptomatic infections come from. Same deal with Babesia - it's everywhere and a large percentage of the healthy population is asymptomatically infected.

Throw a tick bite into the mix and you have the perfect storm.