Question about 31 IND & 39 IND

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when the Western Blot is done it is looking at the specific weight (kda) of certain parts of the bacteria. Lyme bacteria has a few parts that other bacteria/virus does not. Those are the lyme specific bands (like 23-25, 31, 39, etc). So it is NOT exactly telling you it sees the borellia in your blood, but your body is having a reaction to that certain part of bacteria. And you would not have a reaction unless you have that specific part in your blood.

So here's the question. I see a lot of people with 39 IND, and in my child's case he has 31 IND & 39 IND. Through doing research, I found Tuberculosis has 30kda and 38kda. Is it possible that those that have been vaccinated will show 31IND, 39IND due to the closeness of those TB bands? Is it possible there is a bit of bleed over? Which may be why labs like Labcorp and Quest do not report the IND.

I am understanding now the importance of clinical symptoms and not purely labs.

Post Edited (k07) : 2/8/2016 4:31:54 PM (GMT-7)

Forgive me, I've been gone for a week, so I may have missed something, but why are you waiting another month?

An IgM result means that you have an active infection. It once was thought to mean an 'early' infection, but has since been revised. IgG means that the infection is at a later stage, which is why I'm confused as to why you are waiting another month.

As for the tests, they are not that random at all. Each band and each species of bacteria will react in a specific manner. Here is the site that I use to help interpret them:www.oocities.org/hotsprings/oasis/6455/western-blot.txt You can go there to find supporting Pubmed articles showing what these bands represent.

The Western Blot can be used to perform tests for many different bacteria. I don't know enough of the specifics to be able to explain it in detail of any sort, but I do know that a "Lyme specific band" means specific for Borrelia Burgdorferi, sensu stricto - Lyme disease in the strictest sense. There is only one on the over 300 known strains of Lyme that is considered Bb, ss. Nothing else will turn a Lyme specific band positive other than Lyme disease - - even though there are over 100 different strains of Borrelia in the US that cause human illness.


The only bands that I'm aware of that are known that they can cross react is Bands 18 & 41 (whether in IgM or IgG) because they are indicative of the tail of the bacteria, which can cross react with other Spirochetal bacteria such as Relapsing Fever, Pintas and Yaws, and Syphilis.

Recently (less than 2 years), some people have decided that band 31 no longer is Lyme specific, which really makes no sense when you realize just how many studies have been done and how many articles have been written showing that it is indeed Lyme specific:

Band 31:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1520966


www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9440203


www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8406878


www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8005219


www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10030131


And more references can be found here:
www.reocities.com/HotSprings/Oasis/6455/western-blot.txt

As for band 39, there's even stronger evidence that it is Lyme specific - again, you can go to the link above to see these articles - and there may be more by now if you cared to search for them.

I do hope that this has shined some light on some more information that you can use to help you decide what path is right for you and your son.

I've read that...have also had epitope test myself and it was positive.

k07, I understand not wanting your child to have Lyme, but an "indeterminate" is basically a positive on both 31 and 39. To me that says Lyme.

Thanks jrayh21, i do appreciate it.

Thanks Girlie (-: Just trying to make the right decision here. His doctor is only Lyme Friendly and will probably agree with whatever I want.

When I read about TB containing 30kda/38kda it made me wonder...My instinct told me to dig so that is what I did!

I should note he was negative on the elispot test, but I can't find a lot about the mechanics of that testing. I am not feeling as confident about the western blot anymore. The more I read, the more convinced I become that it's a dirty test that is mucked up by the trillions of bacteria in all of us. Lyme should be purely clinical. The whole thing is such a mess.

For what it's worth, my husband had + only on band 31 and 41, but IND on 34, 39, and 83-93
(Igenex IGM IND)

Our LLND recommended he get the epitope test done. (yes - even though he was IND on those lyme specific bands)

i'm thinking that he is concerned about treating without an overall positive...being watched maybe?

What's interesting...is I've seen a handful of people get the Epitope test done...and they all came back positive.

Do they do the Epitope on 31 if it's IND?

At first we decided to wait until I'm almost better...and could see myself returning to work...but a few weeks ago he started taking Japanese knotweed.
He didn't start off low (he's stubborn...and wouldn't listen to me) - so he is already on about 20 drops twice daily. After several days on it, his left foot went numb and cold..but it was beet red.

He is noticing things now...well, actually prior to starting the JK...which prompted him to start. His brain fog is really bothering him...and is concerned it will just get worse...

So, yup, both treating...but his symptoms weren't as bad as mine to begin with... not even close.

He has not had a LL Dr. appt. - self-treating for now.

oatez said...

Girlie said...
For what it's worth, my husband had + only on band 31 and 41, but IND on 34, 39, and 83-93
(Igenex IGM IND)

Our LLND recommended he get the epitope test done. (yes - even though he was IND on those lyme specific bands)

i'm thinking that he is concerned about treating without an overall positive...being watched maybe?

What's interesting...is I've seen a handful of people get the Epitope test done...and they all came back positive.

Do they do the Epitope on 31 if it's IND?

Igenex will not do the Epitope on 31 if it's IND. I asked. My wife has 31 IND and they said no.

I am in a similar situation as k07. My wife has been taking abx and herbals since Sept and not improving. She recently was put on plaquenil for mass-joint pains (her only symptom) and has started to improve in 2 weeks since taking. I understand plaquenil alkalizes the body and/or makes macrolides more effective for Lyme (she's not a macrolide at the moment), but even I get mixed answers from my wife's doc (lymemd) about the efficacy of plaquenil. We go for a follow-up at the end of the month to hopefully get the final answer whether we're dealing with Lyme or not, because she had repeat tests done which are now negative (previously equivocal).

How are you getting the 'final answer'?

So, your wife has improved on the macrolide plus Plaquenil...hmmm...I think you might already have your answer???

okay - I re-read your post - and see her only symptom is joint pain - I missed that.
Was IND on band 31 your wife's only activity showing on the WB?

Oh, she had IND 34 and 39, too... those are Lyme specific.

What is MDL?

In my experience, MDL is not as good as Igenex for Lyme labs.