Antidepressants?

Hi All-

It has been a while since I have been on here so I will catch everyone up with the backstory before I ask my question.

I was Dx in Dec 2014 CDC positive with Lyme. Started abx treatment with a well respected LLMD but stopped the abx after 10 months. I felt I plateaued, and the abx were tearing up my stomach despite heavy probiotics. During this time, I also tested positive for thyroid antibodies (Hashimotos) , showed many signs of hypothyroidism, and began thyroid medication and LDN. At my follow-up appointment with the LLMD, I told him I stopped abx, didn't show any signs of infection and that I felt my remaining issues were hormonal and leaky gut (mood swings, depression, acne, apathy) . Literally 2 weeks after that appointment I began having the worst neck pain & stiffness. Different pillows, mattresses, massage, and chiropractic treatment did nothing. On a whim, I felt drawn to some Artimisinin I had left in the cabinet. Within 8 hours, the pain was significantly better and after a few days completely gone. This was after weeks of nothing touching the pain.
I actually read that although Art is anti-parasitic, it can also have an affect on Candida. I had been taking things for Candida (monolaurin, Difflucan, Nystatin, and other herbs) so I am not sure if candida just became resistant to those or if it is another infection rearing it's ugly head...

But now onto my question....Are any of you on Antidepressants with Lyme or Hashis? I have never been one to jump to a pill for a cure, but it has been 2 years since my life has flipped upside down and I can't shake the sadness for my old life, I am very irritable at times and have a general negative outlook most of the time and feel hopeless about getting my old life back. Things that I used to love, I don't care about anymore and I avoid Facebook like the plague. I get so tired of seeing everyone else brag or whine about this or that, especially when in my mind the whining is over insignificant stuff. I feel anti-social. My husband wants to take me on a vacation in a couple of months (first time in 4 years without the children) and while I want to be excited, I am just anxious and worried.

So I had a regular check up with my family Dr today and told her my concerns of depression and that it was triggered by the illness. She immediately told me she thought it was situational and that I just needed counseling. And she was against letting me try and antidepressant and would put her strong opinion it in the notes for the insurance company (and that I would probably receive nasty letters from them). I asked what would it hurt to let me try something and then stop if I felt worse. She said it could take 2 weeks to leave my system and in that time I could be suicidal if in fact medically I didn't need it. She was confident it was either situational or something abnormal like anemia would be found in my blood work. I left feeling angry and hopeless.

So I am pursuing counseling with a psychiatrist. Any lymies try this route for depression? Do you think just talking about my situation would help? My mother battled depression and my grandmother is schizophrenic (not that my doctor even bothered to ask me about my family history of mental health!) So I am really hoping something positive comes out of counseling whether it involves medication or not.

Also, I have read that SSRIs (Zoloft, Paxil, Lexapro etc) can leave some Hashi's patients feeling worse, more lethargic. But that another class of medication that includes Wellbutrin can have a more positive effect. If anyone has any experiences, I am all ears!

Thank you

Thank you for your response and concern. Just to be clear, it was not my LLMD who recommended counseling, it was my regular family Dr after I brought it up at a wellness check. And yes, it definitely crossed my mind to get a new Dr after that incident.

I have mentioned the depression to my LLMD when asked a list of remaining symptoms but he has never recommended anything specific for it. He is more about addressing the "root cause" which I can appreciate, but so far going after lyme & co and hypothyroidism hasn't helped depression symptoms. My thyroid levels are optimal and herbs seem to be handling remaining candida/or whatever infection I have left causing the neck pain and stiffness. I don't even know if he prescribes antidepressants.

I agree with you. If I finally end up with a prescription, but things seem to be looking up, I would definitely hold off and keep it on the back burner in case things got ugly. I naturally want to feel better on my own, but you would think after 2 years struggling with this, it's not just going to "pass" without addressing it in some form or another. I go to bed at night hoping tomorrow is the day where I turn the corner, and then I wake up and dread moving on with life, thinking this will never end.

"But this prescription was like having a life buoy. If it got horrible it was there. I found a lot of comfort knowing it was there and it was my choice to fill it or not depending on me and how I felt"

That is spot on how I feel about medication as well. Lyme and co's are notorious for causing depression and anxiety that are bit more tricky to treat. It's nice to have some options on the blah days. I and others have had some luck with it though. It is a trial and error thing. I think now more it is best to look with a LLMD or psch. with experience in Lyme and bartonella depression because it is unique.

Doc gave me xanax and i have been super wary of building a dependance ...i had not taken the buprion or eclatpram previous duc gave....of course sadness is a side effect of this bs systemic super infection...of course im anxious of my skin and head and body flipping out ...i want to send ticks to every id and psych duc and then see how many do ok with it

I started taking cymbalta for pain but I found it helped a lot for me with my mood. I am no longer really depressed or suicidal but I found cymbalta was really helping me out. Sadly the side effects for me were too bad to continue taking it, but I get a lot of the common and sometimes uncommon side effects from most drugs.

Anyways I think they can really help if you find the right one and I really wish I had tried them earlier. Just have to be careful with them because sometimes adding a new chemical to the crazy stew Lyme creates can make things worse instead of better.

lymie mom,
I had depression before I had Lyme, but I've continued my SSRI's and talk therapy.

I think talk therapy had a HUGE positive impact on how I dealt with the nastiness that Lyme causes, but make sure you find a therapist who knows and has worked with patients with chronic illness before. And don't be afraid to "shop around" for one you like.

Girlie-

Thanks for sharing your story. I am so glad it resolved for you without meds. Ideally it would happen that way for all of us. It's so hard to know whether it is the lyme in our brain affecting us neurologically causing the depression, or if it is the realization of the circumstances -some of us will be battling lyme & co to a certain extent for the rest of our lives - that's not exactly rainbows and unicorns. Or maybe a combination of both.

I don't know if I'll take meds, but it is nice to know the option is there at least to try. That doctor was not even supportive of me having that option. It's her "holier than thou" attitude that really upset me. Unfortunately there are a lot of them out there.

I was on anti-depressants at one point in my flow, and I wish I knew then what I know now about the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocannabinoid_system. The side effects of the anti-depressants were miserable for me, worse than the depression. Now, I have moved on to using cannabis and it is SO MUCH better. When I was using anti-depressants, they were a part of my journey, but I am glad to be doing something that works for me that is natural. Light boxes are a GREAT help with mood. They helped me get off of them. GREAT to switch GPs... awesome move. Buhner in his protocol for sleep suggests marijuana 1 hr before bed, then at bed, liquid melatonin and benadryl. I stopped the benadryl and substituted valerian and tryptophan. This not only helps with sleep, but mood for me. Good luck on your journey!

multifacetedme-
Glad you found something that worked! May I ask if it was medical MJ that helped you? Unfortunately I am not in a state where either is legal, but my parents are in CO :)

Rowingmom-
Interesting you mention Bart. I treated for Bart and saw no improvement. Recently with the neck pain and stiffness, I started treating with Artimisinin and it quickly went away. Then just today, I noticed a ton of new cherry angiomas randomly on my arms and legs. I have read this is common with BABS, and Art is a great herbal for Babs. I wonder if the Art is killing Babesia?

Ran across this site that suggests BABS causes a lot of headaches, head and neck pain, memory and cognition issues, depression, anxiety, OCD, night sweats, list goes on...

http://www.gordonmedical.com/unravelling-complex-chronic-illness/babesia-like-organisms-bablo-consideration-signs-and-symptoms/

I had night sweats for months, just a few months after the tick bite. But one thing I don't recall having is air hunger which is very common. I guess it made me think Babs was not a co-infection of mine.

What does everyone think about my little Babs theory? Any other herbs that are successful other than Art?

I agree with rowingmom's suggestion.

In fact, as I was reading your post that prompted rowingmom's, I, too, was thinking Babesia.

Babesia wasn't on my radar screen, either because I didn't have any the textbook Babesia symptoms. OK, I had a total of 2 hot flashes during the 6 months I was on abx.

It wasn't until I started the Babesia herbs in Cowden's full protocol that I experienced many, many hot flashes that I got to thinking I might be dealing with a Babesia/Babesia-like infection.

I transitioned to Buhner's full Babesia protocol because Cowden doesn't have a published Babesia protocol. I decided to follow Buhner's Bartonella protocol as well since that particular infection is found in 70% of the ticks tested in my state....along with his Lyme protocol since I know I have that.

I herxed with air hunger, chest pressure, and anxiety on the Babesia herbs - symptoms I never had since the tick bite nor during previous treatment. We don't need to have all the symptoms on the "list" for a particular infection to have that infection.

In fact, healthy people are walking around with asymptomatic Babesia and Bartonella infections. Even the CDC acknowledges this on their website:

www.cdc.gov/parasites/babesiosis/

"Although many people who are infected with Babesia do not have symptoms, for those who do effective treatment is available."

www.cdc.gov/bartonella/clinicians/index.html

"Most cases of cat scratch disease (CSD) resolve without treatment", although some patients may develop complications from disseminated disease.

Cat scratch disease is the henselae strain of Bartonella which is a common coinfection to Lyme. Actually, researchers and savvy doctors are now saying that Bartonella is so prevalent that Lyme should be considered the coinfection.

If healthy people can have no symptoms of Babesia or Bartonella and still be infected, it's entirely possible that those of us dealing with any of these infections could also be infected with Babesia and/or Bartonella....and not necessarily have any symptoms...or have mild symptoms...or just one symptom (mild or not)

Artemisinin is a popular Babesia treatment but it's not good to take that alone. There is identified resistance to Artemisinin and I think rowingmom's suggestion to trial Babesia herbs would be perfect to help prevent that resistance.

I do hope you consider trialing each of the 3 herbs in the CSA mixture separately. That's the only way to gauge response to a particular herb. (some people are not able to take Cryptolepis....or Sida Acuta...or Alchornea Cordiflora for whatever reason).

It certainly wouldn't hurt to trial some Houttuynia for Bartonella at some point....to be thorough.

If you decide to go that route, please go low and slow: one drop of one herb for 4-7 days to gauge response. If all is going well, add one drop of another herb and wait 4-7 days. Continue to add all the herbs you plan on taking in this manner and wash/rinse/repeat until you get to full doses of everything.

If you herx on any of the coinfection herbs, I do hope you'll consider Buhner's full protocols for the particular infection. Healing is not just about killing the bugs. His protocols provide for what's necessary for complete healing: inflammation reduction, immune remodulation and organ healing.

Best of luck to you no matter what you decide!!

Have you considered Sam E? It's primarily for your liver but can have mood enhancing effects.

I went through serious periods of anxiety and deep, dark depression....I called it the cloak of darkness. I would just be sitting there and it would completely overcome me as though someone had put a blanket over me. Just awful. It helped knowing that it was the Lyme/Bartonella doing that to me and I was able to disassociate from it and continue on with my life. During the periods of severe anxiety, which usually hit me about 8 pm every night, I got a script from my ND for Xanax and it was a life saver. I'm not one to take drugs a whole lot, but I'd rather do that than suffer needlessly. I think I ended up using about half of the bottle and still have it in my stash if I need it. Thankfully after a few months with treatment I started to get better but depression and anxiety still pop up here and there to a lesser degree, just not so strong.

Read up on Sam E and see if it may be something you'd be interested in...

Take care,

Jenny

lymie mom x 2 said...


Cryptolepis or combined CSA however, is a whole other story. Severe agitation with those. Like "stay away from me and don't talk to me or I'll likely rip your head off". Is the agitation considered a form of anxiety? I hope this doesn't last long, because I am not sure how to be a civilized member of society with this kind of rage!

Buhner does not recommend past 30 days - Is that because it becomes ineffective or because it can do damage to organs?

I would take this to mean that cryptolepis or CSA are hitting something significant, and if you are having that kind of a reaction I would try only 1 or 2 drops a couple of times daily along with the artemsinin/Artemisia to see where that gets you. Don't increase dosages for a month or 2. You will still be killing babesia, but at levels that your body can detox from.

Not past 30 days because Buhner says it will become ineffective.

Thank you Rowingmom and Girlie!

Wow, Art no longer working on the east coast, that is scary. Makes me wonder if there are new resistant Babs strains. First they say Mepron is less and less effective and now our herbs are in question too :(

My Artemisinin from Allergy Research Group is 200mg capsules. I actually felt good on this 3 x a day, the neck pain and stiffness went away.

But when I took two at the same time (400 mgs), I felt horrible! I think I will get back on the 200mgs 3 x a day and slowly add in cryptolepis to see if that does anything. I would prefer to mind a middle ground between feeling great and feeling like death, lol.