Frustrating LLMD visit - I think he's confused about co-infection antibiotics

So my LLMD thinks my case is super "interesting" because we caught it early and treated extensively.

I caught it within weeks of exposure. I did 3 weeks of doxy, 1 week of amox, 2 months of ceftin and azithromycin.

Still had some arthritis, slight headache, slight neck ache/cracking, super cold feet at night...and also some bart symptoms that came and went through treatment. Mainly swollen lymph nodes twice that resolved in 2 days and another in a week, burning soles for 24 hour period, two nights in which heat felt to be emanating from my forearms, etc. I decided to start herbs for lyme and bart. Got up to Japanese Knotweed and experienced a herx - flu-like symptoms, extreme fatigue, not apetitie, nausea, more burning in soles and arms, and extreme anxiety popped up so lots of fears and crying. I got nervous about babesia because I felt chest tightness and involuntary sighing.

Anyhow, I was hoping LLMD would try to a short trial of Bart or Babesia antibiotics to see if things improved or even herx'd but he felt my symptoms were too borderline because they come and go and they could be lyme, bart or babesia. He said that the antibiotics should have hit co-infections. I have seen nothing on this board that suggests that any of the antibiotics listed above (doxy, amox, ceftin, azithromycin) can kills babesia or bartonella. Is this right?

Anyhow, he had my do more extensive bloodworm through the regular lab and some co-infection testing through isagenix which he acknowledged is not super reliable. HE wants to start slowly on the herbs again and revisit the issue in a month.

I'm really scared of losing this golden window of an acute infection. He assured me that the herbs also kill the co-infections so it's not like doing nothing for a month, but even Buhner recommends antibiotics in combination with herbs for acute infections. I'm just so scared for myself and my kids and this newly found anxiety symptom is not helping at all.

Please remember that many of us are using only herbs to treat these infections - and are healing - as Krimpet said. I'm one of them. I healed a 40 year old set of infections very well with herbs only because I couldn't use pharma abx at all. And, I'm doing it again since my reinfection.

As a side note, I had a tick attach 3 days ago, had an increase in my symptoms - cussed profusely - and started raising my dose of astragalus. I herxed for 2 days, and today I feel like my symptoms are nearly back down to the level they were at before being bitten yet again.

Herbs are powerful, when used as directed.

I would also agree with Krimpet on trying to find something to help you with your anxiety. There are some good natural things you can do (Krimpet listed many), or you can talk to your doctor about his recommendations.

Try to not worry so much about "the acute phase" of this infection. Lyme can go chronic very, very quickly in some people if they have just the right genes or have other conditions/weaknesses in their bodies that allow this. I seem to be one of these people - if my body is not operating well, I get reinfected easily and quickly. The goal is to heal, not how quickly or allow ourselves to cause ourselves even more misery because we are always "freaked out" by everything that's going on. That just doesn't help our bodies heal.

Krimpet 🍔 said...
Lymebug remember there are some people who choose not to or who cannot do antibiotics and are treating with herbs and get better. So in that regard I agree with your doctor in that you are doing something for the co-infections.

As fas as the anxiety what are you taking? Some recommendations are passionflower, valerian root, ashwangdha, or holy basil (if adrenals are not low). Also low Vitamin D can cause anxiety.

I'm going to tell you, what I tell myself, "It will get better."

Thanks very much, Krimpet. I absolutely need to hear those words - "It will get better." I will try to make it a mantra. I also love your quote at the end of your signature line. Who is Louise?

Well, for anxiety, I started taking something my PCP prescribed.

My LLMD recommend L-theanine. And also recommended speaking to my psychiatrist (adult ADD) about adding in an anti-depressant or anti-anxiety med while I get through this. He said it's not uncommon for people with lyme to need to go on anti-depressants while they heal and then come off them later. I believe that.

Traveler said...

Herbs are powerful, when used as directed.

Try to not worry so much about "the acute phase" of this infection. Lyme can go chronic very, very quickly in some people if they have just the right genes or have other conditions/weaknesses in their bodies that allow this. I seem to be one of these people - if my body is not operating well, I get reinfected easily and quickly. The goal is to heal, not how quickly or allow ourselves to cause ourselves even more misery because we are always "freaked out" by everything that's going on. That just doesn't help our bodies heal.

Traveler, As always, you are right.

I know herbs are powerful bc it is kind of what landed me in the worst herx I've experienced so far. I wrote you an email offline but do you think that maybe adding in one capsule per week of japanese knotweed and other strong ones only once per week? i'm trying to get a consult a with buhner herbalist but in the meantime want some protection on my own.


Also, I don't know I'm worried about the acute phase as much as hanging on to for dear life in hopes I can get my life back but you are right about it causing misery here.

Lymebug,

Try and switch to tinctures. You have much more control over the dosage. I really believe we are all so different. I have a very hard time tolerating abx and was so scared, like you, that I would get very sick. Trav, and many others explained that many people heal with herbs. I started slower than molasses and I'm still not taking a lot but I see improvement from what I do take: Stephania (in place of JK), elu, ash. and Tox-Ease.

On very bad anxiety nights I take 2 mg. of valium.

Trav, I can't believe you found a tick on you this week. NOOOOOOOO! You are so amazing. I love how you casually just throw that in there. I would be all over this board worried. Thanks for keeping us all calm,

By the way Lymebug, be gentle with yourself. You have gone through so much. To go on vacation and return with three kids under eight and your entire family with lyme, would give anyone anxiety. You WILL heal. You've got this.

Lymebug,

We live in a highly endemic area and my internist told me "Most ticks don't have lyme you have nothing to worry about." I asked my son's pediatrician, every single year, for several years to test him for lyme. She said "Oh he's as healthy as they come he doesn't have lyme!"

We get your frustration. You sound very on top of things and very fortunate to find an east coast LLMD who moved to Florida. You will all heal. Hang in there.

That means the results satisfied the CDC's criteria for a positive result.

On the Igenex test - CDC positive on IGM if 2 of the following bands are + out of 23-25, 39, and 41.

I'm not sure if that's what you're asking Navigator?

The CDC criteria isn't based on time of exposure- just test results.

I don't think azithromycin is 'enough' to kill bartonella.

With Rifampin, yes...


with a Tetracycline? maybe (one of LLMD MR's protocols)

I don't know much about the abx used for these infections, but I do know that, yes, you do need an anti-malarial drug to treat Babesia.

I'm sorry about not answering your email yesterday, I had a few errands to take care of, and it took longer than expected. Sorry. I'll answer today though, I promise.

Yes, adding in the herbs at a much slower rate would be a lot better. I would, however, base it more on how you feel rather than the number if days between each time you increase you dose. If you are starting to feel a herx, don't increase again until you have the herxing under control again.

You can also open a capsule up, take out half of the contents, and only use that amount to increase your dose. You can buy empty capsules to put the "leftover" herbs into, or you could just mix them into strong flavored juice (Buhner suggests pomegranate, or tart cherry),or applesauce, or whatever you think might work to cover the taste.

Yes, you should be able to get a copy of the test results from your doctor that signed the test request form.

lyme bug,

Antibiotics are slightly overrated and herbs are underrated.

How do you think Antibiotics were created? Magic? No. When antibiotics are invented, scientist look to the natural world.

They study plants (herbs) to understand how they create resistance against bacteria and fungus. Once the compounds are recognized they are synthetically replicated. They were synthetically replicated so they could be patented. You can't patent plants and natural compounds.

You ever hear people say, we have to save the rain forest because the cure for cancer could be there but we are chopping it away? Yea there's a reason scientist say that. Plants.

So the right herbs are "antibiotics", humans just copied nature, synthetically produced it and put it in pill form and called it "something-pro" or "something-erx". Plants are the foundation of medical science (emphasis on the word "science" because nature is science).

There's much more we can get into about this but that's another discussion.

Your doctor is right that herbs work too and are antibiotics. I wouldn't freak out about taking them while you wait for your next round of pharmaceutical abx. You would still be treating yourself.