Why do some get sick right away, yet others take years to manifest TBD?

It depends a lot of the strength of ones immune system.

I believe Bart and Babs would be the same as well as many viruses and even cancers.

Also, our gut health is a factor. We are hearing more and more, that our overall health and well-being begins in our gut.

This is why recovery from Lyme and coinfections is difficult if there are underlying issues.

Many never get sick-many do one round of doxy and are cured. Its not just a random tick bite
My guess is we all have various causes-some of which are-

Gut
dental
implants
heavy metals
parasite
other

All good info, thanks.

I know my immune function faltered last June when we had a series of unfortunate events while traveling which were quite stressful. I, like many, don't recall ever having a tick Bite though I've found them on the dogs a few times over the years and found a few on my pants after walking through tall grass one time. OGK when I was actually hit though.

I've never thought I had that great of an immune system. I typically get 2-3 colds a year. Probably ~5-6 flu's in my life. I'm 61 now. I did have 2 childhood viruses reactivate: shingles and ebv. Presumably because the stressful travel events and/or the shingles reactivation set off a cascade in me. The pain of shingles on my face was excruciating 24/7 for 2 solid months with no relief from meds. I'd take the travel catastrophes over the shingles any day.

I dunno. It's odd that many young healthy folks get bit and get sick right away. I've recently had tons of tests, immunoglobulin panel, lymphocyte subset panel, ige, and tons more and everything comes up in range. Mostly middle with a few at the lower quarter.

I wonder if immune system tests have a ridiculous wide reference range like endocrine tests?

Hopefully once I start seeing appreciable progress on an antimicrobial that I can tolerate more than one drop of, I'll stop ruminating on this.

PeteZa, I firmly believed and shared the idea that the "microbes" intent was to preserve their host.

Not lately. Right now they'd better wake up and give my body a break or they'll be trying to preserve a corpse.

At a time when I have a break in my stressful issues I am feeling my worst. My energy is 0. I can barely force my lungs to breathe If I take myself off the oxygen. I am the weakest I have ever been, in my arms/hands/legs. My eyes keep messing up, my balance is so bad I keep bumping into things and tipping over. I'm not herxing because...I've not started anything new and haven't taken anything at all for over 24 hours. Pain everywhere. Lifting my arms is like trying to lift 50 lbs each.

I took my temp. because sometimes when I feel like I have the flu, I have a fever. It took about 20 seconds for the thermometer beeper to go off and I thought, "well, I guess I do since it's taking so long". Nope. 97.6.F


Just going to apologize right here for dropping the mod ball so much. Not being as helpful as I want to on the board. I'm not getting things done at home either. I just want to sleep.

Purrrsiankitty said...
It depends a lot of the strength of ones immune system....
gut health is a factor...
This is why recovery from Lyme and coinfections is difficult if there are underlying issues.

Yes, we are complex ecosystems, that have gotten even more complex in the last 3 decades.

Our immune system is constantly attempting to keep up with new and old familiar invaders while keeping the populations of these in check as best it can.

It does a wonderful job of it, until it is overloaded and overwhelmed.

Its not as simple as get bit, get sick.

I believe my body was capable of keeping many foreign populations low, and me asymptomatic, but then stress and long term mold exposure took its toll on the immune system.

Maybe at some point the immune system decided it was losing the battle versus a specific rapidly growing population of bacteria and may have co-opted the presence of fungi by lowering its defense so the fungi could help with fighting a bacterial infection that was rapidly growing unchecked.

The immune system is amazing. Its like it knows the catch 22 darned if you do or dont and makes the choices to die slower.

I believe it is capable of prioritizing and attempts to preserve life first and foremost. The lesser of two evils. Opting for undesirable illness instead of rapid death.

This buys you time to come to its assistance while it fires off all sorts of warning alarms we call symptoms.

julymorning said...
....
Not lately. Right now they'd better wake up and give my body a break or they'll be trying to preserve a corpse.
At a time when I have a break in my stressful issues I am feeling my worst. My energy is 0. I can barely force my lungs to breathe If I take myself off the oxygen. I am the weakest I have ever been, in my arms/hands/legs. My eyes keep messing up, my balance is so bad I keep bumping into things and tipping over. I'm not herxing because...I've not started anything new and haven't taken anything at all for over 24 hours. Pain everywhere. Lifting my arms is like trying to lift 50 lbs each.
I took my temp. because sometimes when I feel like I have the flu, I have a fever. It took about 20 seconds for the thermometer beeper to go off and I thought, "well, I guess I do since it's taking so long". Nope. 97.6.F
Just going to apologize right here for dropping the mod ball so much. Not being as helpful as I want to on the board. I'm not getting things done at home either. I just want to sleep.

I do hope you improve, JulyMorning, and I will be praying for you.

JulyMorning,
I also will be praying for you, that you get better - NO, that you COMPLETELY HEAL!

Please know that others understand what you are going through!

PeteZa has good and wise advice!

Hugs to you.

Klagh

The simple answer is there is no simple answer. I was infected at the age of 7, and yet I managed to hang on with varying degrees of 'bouts' with the symptoms getting severe at times, but not constantly for several decades. How did that happen? The only answer I can find is that I DID have a strong immune system, but it was heavily compromised, so the struggle ensued, going back and forth between it being able to keep things under control and not. So there had to be something else tipping the scales during those times - but what? I was a healthy, very happy 7 year old when it all started, and although I kept getting sick, my life was good.

I wasn't bed bound for most of my life - I had periods where I was actually quite 'normal' (well as normal as I can get! LOL!) and went to school, had friends, and plenty of activities outside of school - then suddenly, I was bedridden with symptoms for a few months. Sometimes it started with what I now know to be viral symptoms, other times it was completely what I now know to be bacterial infection symptoms.

July, I'm privy to some information that others may not be, and I know that you have been under a tremendous amount of unavoidable stress lately. Stress is our main enemy, as you know. I have faith that you will start doing better once the issues "resolve" however they resolve. Keep on trying to lower your stress and easing your body through this time. And know that you are in my thoughts and prayers.

Klagh said...
PeteZa,
How long did it take you to heal?

I so hate answering this question because I set up people for disappointment or a false sense of getting well.

We all heal at different times under different circumstances.

Traveler healed quicker than I did and I think one other veteran member healed quicker than I did. It really is not the goal to heal quicker. It is the goal to heal effectively.

I got bit April 29, 2015. I got symptoms in late June, started treatment in late July and went to full herb treatment in late Sept, and was symptom free in March 2016. I quit the herbs in July doing them extra months to ensure I was well.

I think everything was aligned just right for me to heal. I was retired and had enough money to be very comfortable and it was not a concern in my healing - that is HUGE! I had very little responsibilities, my youngest Grandchild is 18. I was a super detoxer way before I ever got lyme. We eat close to 100% organic in our home. We rarely do sugar. No packaged foods, no sodas ever! no condiments where you can't pronounce the ingredients, neither of us take medications, and we both are super healthy outdoorsy people.

Like others have said everyone is different.
But my story is somewhat similar to Traveler's. And my theory is that it is highly related to gut health, which of course in turn is related to our immune system.

I was bitten at age 7 and I clearly and vividly remember it. My mom took me to the school nurse who removed it. I remember how engorged the tick was.
But I led a fairly "normal" and healthy life. I was diagnosed at age 17 with Stage 4 endometriosis which some believe is an immune dysfunction disease. And my LLMD said 90% of his female Lyme patients have endo. But that's another story. I was able to work, finish college, travel; Live Life!

My world changed rather suddenly and drastically though in 2002/2003 at age 28. I had taken about 6 different ABX within a 6 week time frame. I don't know what they were and the docs kept giving me the wrong ones. But I know they were VERY powerful. I had shots, orals, and IV's. I now believe that I was given some from the fluoroquinolone group and I am one of the many who has suffered the consequences. One day I will look into it.

Within a month I was a different person. Bed ridden, major thyroid malfunction, severe candidiasis, food intolerances, nail ridges/pits, skin rashes. It took me about 7 years and drastic lifestyle change to overcome the candida. I had been to countless doctors and ended up self treating for the yeast. But I did and was slowly able to start working part time. But was never the same, still seeking answers from doctors. Then in 2013 I came down with mono(which of course I had to demand the test for because my doc didn't believe me.) And I have essentially been house bound since.

So my theory, at least for my case, is that I was happily and symbiotically living with the borrelia this whole time. But it wasn't until that major onslaught of hardcore ABX, that the symbiosis got tweaked and the Lyme was able to take over and has gradually dug it's tentacles into every aspect of my body and life since. I mean, as someone mentioned, we have been living with ticks for millennia. Someone posted too, (I'm sorry I don't remember who) how this class of ABX can do just that. I truly believe that is what happened to me. I am not against ABX, in fact I am seeking IV ones for my jaw infection, but I think it's quite an interesting theory.

Here's a quote from the article the above person posted:

"As mentioned in 'Lyme Toxins: the Primary Cause of Your Symptoms,' (Townsend Letter, April 2007), certain classes of antibiotics can activate bacteriophages, viruses. An astonishing new finding was released by John Travis in Science News (July 2003;164). Travis reported that research performed by John F. Prescott found that certain antibiotics, such as the fluoroquinolones, the class of antibiotics that includes the name-brands and generic brands of Levaquin™, Cipro™, Tequin™, and Avelox™, actually are known to trigger a type of virus called bacteriophages (viruses that can infect bacteria), to change the genetic sequencing of the bacteria, causing the bacterium they have infected to start producing toxins. These viruses can act as genetic delivery vans, invading bacteria, such as spirochetes, and often lying dormant until activated by a change in the host (your body) environment. Once activated, these viruses insert their toxin-generating genes into the bacterial chromosomes. These viruses can turn basically harmless bacterium into killers through this genetic sequencing of toxins (Travis 2003)."

Reviving this thread with another question.

about 7 months before the Lymeco onslaught hit me, I took a 2 week course of bactrim for what the doc thought was epididimitis. (turned out the problem was a bad fitting seat on my stationary bike). Also, the previous year I took a 10 day course of amoxicillin 500 MG for a sinus infection.

From what y'all have said here and what I read in Rawls book, I suspect I've had a latent infection for quite a while. But, IF, I had latent Lyme at that time I took the bactrim for 2 weeks, and the amoxicillin for 10 days, wouldn't that have angered the Lyme and caused me symptoms?

Hi July Morning,
I'm just hoping you are having better days. Thinking of you and praying for some healing and relief of what your going through.

I know you are tired and I just wish that today there is a moment of bright sunshine just for you.

Take care, Sincerely, Jo

TrialbyLyme said...
Like others have said everyone is different.
But my story is somewhat similar to Traveler's. And my theory is that it is highly related to gut health, which of course in turn is related to our immune system.

I was bitten at age 7 and I clearly and vividly remember it. My mom took me to the school nurse who removed it. I remember how engorged the tick was.
But I led a fairly "normal" and healthy life. I was diagnosed at age 17 with Stage 4 endometriosis which some believe is an immune dysfunction disease. And my LLMD said 90% of his female Lyme patients have endo. But that's another story. I was able to work, finish college, travel; Live Life!

My world changed rather suddenly and drastically though in 2002/2003 at age 28. I had taken about 6 different ABX within a 6 week time frame. I don't know what they were and the docs kept giving me the wrong ones. But I know they were VERY powerful. I had shots, orals, and IV's. I now believe that I was given some from the fluoroquinolone group and I am one of the many who has suffered the consequences. One day I will look into it.

Within a month I was a different person. Bed ridden, major thyroid malfunction, severe candidiasis, food intolerances, nail ridges/pits, skin rashes. It took me about 7 years and drastic lifestyle change to overcome the candida. I had been to countless doctors and ended up self treating for the yeast. But I did and was slowly able to start working part time. But was never the same, still seeking answers from doctors. Then in 2013 I came down with mono(which of course I had to demand the test for because my doc didn't believe me.) And I have essentially been house bound since.

So my theory, at least for my case, is that I was happily and symbiotically living with the borrelia this whole time. But it wasn't until that major onslaught of hardcore ABX, that the symbiosis got tweaked and the Lyme was able to take over and has gradually dug it's tentacles into every aspect of my body and life since. I mean, as someone mentioned, we have been living with ticks for millennia. Someone posted too, (I'm sorry I don't remember who) how this class of ABX can do just that. I truly believe that is what happened to me. I am not against ABX, in fact I am seeking IV ones for my jaw infection, but I think it's quite an interesting theory.

Here's a quote from the article the above person posted:

"As mentioned in 'Lyme Toxins: the Primary Cause of Your Symptoms,' (Townsend Letter, April 2007), certain classes of antibiotics can activate bacteriophages, viruses. An astonishing new finding was released by John Travis in Science News (July 2003;164). Travis reported that research performed by John F. Prescott found that certain antibiotics, such as the fluoroquinolones, the class of antibiotics that includes the name-brands and generic brands of Levaquin™, Cipro™, Tequin™, and Avelox™, actually are known to trigger a type of virus called bacteriophages (viruses that can infect bacteria), to change the genetic sequencing of the bacteria, causing the bacterium they have infected to start producing toxins. These viruses can act as genetic delivery vans, invading bacteria, such as spirochetes, and often lying dormant until activated by a change in the host (your body) environment. Once activated, these viruses insert their toxin-generating genes into the bacterial chromosomes. These viruses can turn basically harmless bacterium into killers through this genetic sequencing of toxins (Travis 2003)."

Those quinolones really scare me. Thank you for sharing your story. It's always helpful and informative to hear other patients' stories. It's kind of how I pieced together my hypothesis of my own health story, because I noticed patterns in other peoples' stories that were similar to my own.

I think I've had the infections since I was a kid, lowly symptomatic but high-functioning for many years, although a slight creep downward in overall health status where I started getting this feeling of impending doom. Then at 24 I got mono and I think that was the trigger event that exploded the underlying infections (lyme and bartonella). I think genetics (immune system genetics in particular) play a role, along with various other environmental factors. I do wish we had more answers on why some people are asymptomatic, and of that group how many go on to express to disease at some point down the line, and I mean even decades down the line? how many are able to remain asymptomatic their whole lives? do a good proportion start manifesting disease when the right trigger comes along (for me mono, but imo if it hadn't been mono it would've been something else, like the flu, I think my body was primed for a fall), or can age play a role where we start getting much older our immune system starts weakening and can't control the underlying infections as much, and does potential increasing permeability of bbb as we age also play a role???...