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Bartonella or Babesia?

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Posted 11/5/2017 4:32 AM (GMT 0)
I am having a tough time discerning bartonella from babesia based on symptom descriptions I have found online. Some people claim that bartonella is primarily responsible for neuro symptoms, while other sources attribute these same symptoms to babesia.

Here are the symptoms I have been experiencing:
-Brain fog
-Derealization/depersonalization - it feels like I have been living in a dream for 6 months
-PVCs (also a debate whether these are caused by babs or bart)
-Poor short term memory
-Poor word recall
-Head pressure
-Lightheadedness upon standing
-Malaise
-Numbness in left leg
-Barely any physical pain whatsoever

I herx heavily off of CSA, and the symptoms that are exacerbated are mainly depersonalization, brain fog, head pressure, and malaise.

In your opinion, does this sound like babs or bart? I am taking mepron and zithromax, but have not herxed from it.

Thank you!
Posted 11/5/2017 4:38 AM (GMT 0)
To confuse things more - many of those could also be Lyme.

I think the head pressure is Babesia.

Many of those could be Bart or Babs.

This is why some LLMD's will just treat all three B's.

Although CSA is considered a Babs treatment - the Sida acuta also hits Bartonella. So, difficult to know for sure.

My LLND says cryptolepis hits all infections somewhat - not sure if that's true.
Posted 11/5/2017 6:19 PM (GMT 0)
I echo, Girlie. Your symptoms sound like a lyme and coinfection (babs/bart) soup.
Glad to hear at least you aren't feeling physical pain. My kids have that.
Posted 11/5/2017 7:52 PM (GMT 0)
It does seem Like all three.

How long have you been treating and If I may ask are you just using herbals?

I think most of my Neuro was from bart.

The Sida acuta should help with the head pressure after a bit. It got rid of mine.

take care, Jo
Posted 11/6/2017 3:40 AM (GMT 0)

goshawk said...
It does seem Like all three.

How long have you been treating and If I may ask are you just using herbals?

I think most of my Neuro was from bart.

The Sida acuta should help with the head pressure after a bit. It got rid of mine.

take care, Jo

hmmm. maybe I should go back on the sida acuta. My head pressure is quite a bit better, but not completely gone.
Posted 11/6/2017 4:08 AM (GMT 0)

goshawk said...
It does seem Like all three.

How long have you been treating and If I may ask are you just using herbals?

I think most of my Neuro was from bart.

The Sida acuta should help with the head pressure after a bit. It got rid of mine.

take care, Jo


I've been treating for about two months now. I am taking antibiotics (bicillin/zithromax/tindamax) and mepron in addition to Buhner and Cowden.

I feel that the lyme itself is under control, given that I no longer react to antibiotics/herbs that target borrelia, and the lack of physical pain. I think whatever co-infection this is and candida are causing most of my problems.

I just ordered hawthorne and houttuynia to see if I can invoke a response from bart.

Did you only use sida acuta for bart, and have you been able to heal from it?

Thanks
Posted 11/6/2017 4:28 AM (GMT 0)
Hammer8 - I don't think Hawthorn is ideal for provoking Bart - it's a great support herb for cardiovascular/heart health.

In addition to houttuynia - what about adding JK?
Posted 11/6/2017 4:35 AM (GMT 0)
I currently take about 4-5 tsp per day of JK per Buhner core protocol. Would that normally provoke it??
Posted 11/6/2017 4:41 AM (GMT 0)

hammer8 said...
I am having a tough time discerning bartonella from babesia based on symptom descriptions I have found online. Some people claim that bartonella is primarily responsible for neuro symptoms, while other sources attribute these same symptoms to babesia.

Here are the symptoms I have been experiencing:
-Brain fog
-Derealization/depersonalization - it feels like I have been living in a dream for 6 months
-PVCs (also a debate whether these are caused by babs or bart)
-Poor short term memory
-Poor word recall
-Head pressure
-Lightheadedness upon standing
-Malaise
-Numbness in left leg
-Barely any physical pain whatsoever

I herx heavily off of CSA, and the symptoms that are exacerbated are mainly depersonalization, brain fog, head pressure, and malaise.

In your opinion, does this sound like babs or bart? I am taking mepron and zithromax, but have not herxed from it.

Thank you!

I agree with the others - this is not easy and can also be Lyme.

These sx are known as "neurological-psychological" or neuro-psych sx caused by neurotransmitter imbalances. Sometimes, the problem originates in the GI - and neurotoxins get into the brain through the connecting blood vessels (think gut-brain connection):
-Brain fog
-Derealization/depersonalization - it feels like I have been living in a dream for 6 months
-Poor short term memory
-Poor word recall
-Head pressure

I had all of those sx and tons more. I was pos for Lyme and pos for "bart-like' or BLO. I could never get a pos babesia test but treated it anyway.

When I started abx for Lyme and another for bart - both times I herxed horribly for about 3-4 wks with these sx - VERY EXTREME plus a few other sx. Over time, they got better. I started on CSA and they got pretty bad again for awhile. I herxed pretty bad on A-bab as well.

After treating everything for almost 4 years I'm done w/ Lyme abx and bart-like abx and transitioning to all-herbs. Still on babs herbs. I also still have some of those neuro-psych sx just on a much lesser scale. I wonder if it's permanent damage.

My Lyme-knowledgable neurologist suggests most neuropathy is from inflammation so that's something to look into for some of those sx. I like the idea of adding JK.

-p
Posted 11/6/2017 4:46 AM (GMT 0)
Dr. MR in Seattle said he's used Houttuynia and Sida Acuta with good results in about 70% of this patients. I'm combining these as well since both are very good herbs and have strong action against bacteria.

If you look at other herbs Cryptolepis, Alchornea, Cordyceps and Japanese Knotweed and the above are all really good herbs for a variety of things. My feeling is if you took all 6 long enough and with enough quantity I'm not sure how these bugs could survive.

If I could start over again I would try this modified Buhner protocol to hit all 3 B's. As they say there's more than one way to skin a cat.
Posted 11/6/2017 4:51 AM (GMT 0)

hammer8 said...
I currently take about 4-5 tsp per day of JK per Buhner core protocol. Would that normally provoke it??

It's part of Buhners Bart protocol as well.
So is sida acuta - but then it's also targeting Babesia.
Posted 11/7/2017 1:32 PM (GMT 0)
These symptoms can be from Lyme and Bartonella. I'm not sure about the Babesia.
Posted 11/7/2017 10:07 PM (GMT 0)
I have the same sx and my LLMD thinks it sounds a lot like babesia and bart (but could also be Lyme).

She always says:

Babs- night sweats, frontal headaches, heart issues, off balance feeling, tingling

bart- day sweats, numbness, anxiety, cognitive dysfunction.

When I get back from my business trip in Germany I am going to start hitting babs with mepron. Herbs are not working for me.

After that, I will start hitting bart with antibiotics as well.

Doctor Horowitz always says to hit babs first.

I know how you feel though. I wish there was a test that was accurate that we could rely on.. keep us updated on progress!
Posted 11/7/2017 10:44 PM (GMT 0)
If I were you I would also rule out candida, ever since I started treating that a lot of my brain fog, depersonalization and derealization has gone away. I also have lyme and bart.
Posted 11/7/2017 10:57 PM (GMT 0)
Haha I'm glad that we could come to a consensus! Not! Thank you for all of the feedback.

Gabybee and to everyone - I am now quite sure that most of my current issues, other than PVCs, are due to Candida. I tested highly positive for Candida prior to antibiotic treatment for Lyme, and it seems it has gotten worse (or maybe my other infections have just gotten better) despite use of Flucanazole. I tried Itracanozole and will now be switching to the big gun - Variconazole.

After starting Bicillin, I initially felt much better and was quite well after 3-4 weeks of shots 3x a week. Then I developed a rash on my face and developed eczema. I also started reacting strongly to oil of oregano and apple cider vinegar, which I had previously been fine with. It is tough to explain, but I also feel a different kind of brain fog than I had before. This all leads me to believe Candida is my problem.

I am going to try Buhner's bartonella protocol and see if I can get a reaction. If not, it seems that babs, candida, and the remaining borrelia can definitely lead to what I am feeling.
Posted 11/7/2017 11:10 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Hammer8,
Sorry it took so long to respond.

I still am treating Bart.

I am doing the full Buhner Bartonella protocol from his book on co infections.

This includes: Japanese Knotweed
EGCG
L-arginine
Cordceps
Sida acuta
Red root
Milk thistle
Hawthorne
Rhodiola
Isatis
Houttuynia
alcohornea

I do take other tinctures as well for Babesia.

I suggest to make sure that while treating you incorporate binders here and there when you can.

Zeolite and/or activated charcoal

I think this helps more than we may realize. Since we are killing stuff our bodies can get overloaded with toxins. This alone can cause symptoms that seem stubborn or are lasting.

I have moved forward a bit after using binders.

Candida like others said can definitely cause some of these symptoms too.

After I started treating that my brain fog cleared up. I cant tell you how good that feels.I am very grateful for that symptom to be gone.

I Hope you are able to find something that works for you and continue healing, Take care, Jo
Posted 3/23/2023 11:53 PM (GMT 0)

goshawk said...
It does seem Like all three.

How long have you been treating and If I may ask are you just using herbals?

I think most of my Neuro was from bart.

The Sida acuta should help with the head pressure after a bit. It got rid of mine.

take care, Jo

I know this post is years old. Anyone still on here that got better? I took sida acuta twice and could never tolerate , as my heart rate as like 180 and it caused me tachycardia . It made me sweat like soaked through clothes and chills at the same time. It make me feel like a drug addict who was withdrawing and detoxing. I could no longer tolerate it so never took it again as it was so scary. It did however take my terrible migraines and head pressure away. Never found out if it was babesia or bartonella.
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