babs VS bart according to SP in Ct

ok, im getting frustrated, so here is the info/rant

have had an all the time dizzy,woozy vertigo brain thing going on for 8 months....tested postive for lyme 3 yrs ago, got better last spring, than re-infected probably last july, at which time i tested positive for babs...i never had this dizzy woozy drugged feeling the first time around...have read that people with this attribute it to babs....i DID have some air hunger in july, but never since....soaking night sweats just in my ankles and chills that have progressively gotten worse

im a patient of SP in ct, who is one of the best llmds going, and he got me well the first time....however he truly thinks that most of the things we think are babs are actually bart....in the videos he has posted online, he has said that babs isnt shown in studies to be as persistent as lyme/bart, that bart causes more neurological symptoms while babs doesnt, and that babs doesnt cause herxes....says that the mepron i have taken that seems to cause more of a brain fog herx is affecting bacteria (lyme/bart)...

its frustrating bc i know Dr J in in Dc and Dr H in Ny talk alot about babs....i am seeing my llmd again this week and will bring it up, but he probably knows as much as anyone with these diseases...

Girlie, if you come in here, i find it amusing from searches that i have had alot of the symptoms you have (tingling going down legs, sweating in ankles), and you chose Dr J while im with SP...you want your dr to focus more on bart now, while im looking for more babs treatment....

i have done 3 different mepron/zith for 21 days, and then 21 days off....i know, i know you need at least 4 months blabla, which might be true, but how to you convince one of the leading llmds that they are wrong? if he is wrong at all? maybe he is right and the never ending babs treatments are never ending bc its not addressing the real problem (bart)? you really cant make up how awful the situation is....we really dont know WHAT we have based on archaic testing, and even if we knew we dont know HOW to treat effectively...its like a dante circle of hell

ps- was going to link most recent Sp video about babs/bart argument and his view on lyme vaccine, but facebook is blocked on work computer...if someone can post it, itd be appreciated

opu

the funny thing, i think liposomal artemesin is next....but if you watch his videos, he thinks it is effective against bart! he just strongly feels that bart is the main driver...which contrasts with some others of the major llmds...but then he's actively doing research with many of the big names into a cure for bart, just got a 100,000 $ grant etc....SO do all of us "lyme crazies" have it wrong about what is bart and what is babs? and where exactly does all of our knowledge come from? our own internet research...you can read Schaller and you would think that babs is uncurable using the standard mepron-zith.... if there WAS a correct protocol for any of these bugs we would be taking it...im just so confused

Schaller is a charlatan if you read his books he makes things so complicated and finally you're so confused that you think you have to be treated with him to get a real cure and pay more than 450$ for a phone consult... His books are bullcrap with perdon... He says it doesn't work it doesn't... But he never say a true cure because he's a charlatan... We aware with this guys... They make more harm than CDC and people like wormser and his friends....

I love Dr SP, hold him in extremely high regard. While I think focusing on bartonella is smart, I do think he might be underestimating babesia. Even in his last video (on the lyme vaccine) he mentions babesia and how he doesn't think this pathogen can cause herxing when you are treating for it, and that herxes are caused by other organisms like bart and lyme. That was very surprising to me. Personally I don't know the biochem so I go off the general things I've read and it's always seemed like babesia can cause herxing.

I herxed to what are considered antiprotozoal specific medications like malarone and also other antiparasitics (like ivermectin) in the same way I herx with other broader spectrum antimicrobials. And it seems my experience mirrors many other patients. Anyways, his observation on babesia and herxing got me wondering if he was being a bit overly dismissive of this pathogen... and I do think he is extremely smart, so he might not be wrong. But still, it is a somewhat surprising position on babesia.

Either way, he is a great doctor. I think if he is treating you you are in good hands. At least with the lip artemisinin you'll be having a good chance of hitting babesia.

Here's the video: /www.facebook.com/lymebook/videos/792284287643619/

Dbwilco, i made a mistake jajaja with this example i was refering to bartonella... Anyway he should suffer lyme/bart and babs al together....

Steven phillips is a good llmd sebreg.

Dang yeah, that is tough. Of course I would worry too (am I doing enough, is my doctor missing something?). Even the best, brightest, can overlook things. But at the same time, have to consider his track record, he has helped a hell of a lot of patients, and many very very tough cases.

I would at least give him the benefit of the doubt for a while and see if you improve over time. It's good that normally you guys will hit up alinia, ivermectin, I think those can be good for babs. If bart is a factor then knocking it back could make treating babs easier?

But especially with a positive babs test, it shouldn't be ignored or dismissed. I'd at least be comforted by the fact that some of the drugs you are taking (or will be taking soon) have antiprotozoal properties. If you are feeling very worried, could consider adding some herbs like CSA (from woodlands essence, Buhner recommends that for babs). I'd read up a bit and check with Dr, but CSA has always seemed pretty safe in regards to interactions. Might herx, but in that case would just have to start super slowly.

Personally I think all these infections have synergizing effects. I doubt there will be one king infection, instead they potentiate each other, so the sickest patients generally will have other chronic stealth infections powering each other up. Some excellent researchers seem to think bartonella may be a lynchpin with a lot of these illnesses, I mean, it's very possible. Time and research will tell.

Interesting he said that the mepron was possibly affecting lyme/bart and that's what was causing herxing. I asked that specific question in their video thread, I was curious because I've always herxed like hell on malarone and I didn't think it had activity against the other infections except for babs and babs like organisms. Like I said, I don't know the biochem though...

In a similar fashion I remember being surprised when Buhner wrote that bartonella doesn't cause herxes (due to the nature of its biochem). I know most experts believe it can cause herxing, but always interesting how people who are very knowledgable are still trying to figure things out. Nothing is written in stone with this stuff, the knowledge and understanding is fluid as more research comes along...

So long as you have pretty broad-based treatment approaches to cover your bases I think that should lessen the worry of what infection is doing what. From everything I've heard Dr SP does hit things from a lot of angles so hopefully most angles are covered.

Post Edited (sebreg) : 6/25/2018 8:46:57 AM (GMT-6)

That's interesting about Breitschwerdt, I didn't know that. If I recall correctly his oft-collaborater Mozayeni says it can cause herxing... I'd like to see if I can track that down to confirm. Some of this stuff prob depends on many various factors like how sick the patients are, immune system genetics, what specific pathogen strains they have, etc.

Sometimes it's hard to make heads or tails of it, which is why I like the broad approach!

sebreg said...
That's interesting about Breitschwerdt, I didn't know that. If I recall correctly his oft-collaborater Mozayeni says it can cause herxing... I'd like to see if I can track that down to confirm. Some of this stuff prob depends on many various factors like how sick the patients are, immune system genetics, what specific pathogen strains they have, etc.

Sometimes it's hard to make heads or tails of it, which is why I like the broad approach!

You’re right - Dr M acknowledges herxing with Bart treatment.

The webinar is worth watching.

I have emailed with someone who has seen Dr M for treatment and the herxes can be bad

Just to clarify there is no other doctor I'd rather have. It's just his view is contrary to consensus which leads to more questions on my end. I have put my faith in his knowledge so he has more than my benefit of doubt

dbwilco said...
sebreg- thanks for posting the video...his thoughts on the vaccine are interesting, especially since he was treating patients when lymerix came out in the 90s.....

but his babs comment are what has me in a tizzy...i knew his views on babs, but is he overly dismissing? or is he right? im quest positive for microti since july, and the titers havent improved....i know he uses ivermectin and alinia down the road, and a more caring doctor cant be found, but i hate the questions that video left me with...i truly think if his research on bart comes up with a drug that CURES it, it will change the course of medicine...but then again maybe Dr J in DC is right, and it IS babs...or maybe oriol is right and it was lyme all along

I don't know why he wouldn't have had you stay on Babs treatment for one or two more months just to make sure. No harm done right?
Especially if you tested positive for babesia....did he forget that? (Seriously , sometimes the docs do forget..or maybe confuse you with another patient )

I don't think Dr J feels everyone has a stubborn babesia infection, but that many do, and testing is poor - that it's best to treat it since not treating it can hold back effectively treating the other infections and in the long run - better off getting it out of the way early on.

When I first started getting sick I had the exact same symptoms as you and babesia came back positive on normal tests (not Igenex) twice...while everything else was negative on normal tests. It took 2 years of babesia treatment to make the sweating stop...it was dreadful.

I think this disease is so complicated that you should get a second opinion. The cost to seeing Dr. J is high but it is very easy to get in as a new patient (I recommend Kim).

It also sounds like you are in a severe condition at the moment.

Justin01 said...
I would treat with botanicals. They are very strong and will address multiple types of infections, including Bart. and Bab. Two great botanicals for both Bart. and Bab. are Sida acuta (both Bart. and Bab.) and Houttuynia (more Bart.). Just be careful if you are experiencing any high blood pressure with the Sida acuta. If so, Cryptolepis is the next best botanical. Personally, I would avoid Artimisinin. It isn't as effective as either Sida acuta or Cryptolepis, and it can be dangerous, especially over long-term use (greater than one month) due to the potential for liver damage. Sida acuta and Cryptolepis are as effective, if not more effective than any antibiotic and any other botanical.

One other thing, if these are chronic infections, just go slow. Start off with one to a few drops (tincture form) a few times per day, and build up to the full dose over the course of a few weeks or more if needed. The Herxing can be quite difficult for some people.

Best wishes, and God bless!

Artemisinin is safe - it should be pulsed - not taken for a month straight.
Some llmd’s prescribe it to be taken 4 on and 10 off or in my case M, W, F two weeks on and two weeks off

I’ve also seen 7 days straight and then a break.

Sheeks175 said...
Ok guys I gotta join in on this conversation lol. So I have appointments scheduled with Dr SP's NP Kelly and Dr J's NP Kim in September. I am struggling which one to choose, but I am actually leaning towards Dr. J right now. Here's my reasoning:

In interviews Dr. J says that babesia is the hardest to kill and preventing people from getting well. He says that bart is relatively easy to kill after the babesia is gone. "A noble adversary" he called bart.

On the other hand Dr. SP says that bart is impossible to kill. Nothing will kill it in the test tube except gentamycin, which doesn't get inside cells and has severe side effects. In clinical practice it seems like he has a hard time killing bart, but he definitely can get it done. He has made people well including Dana in his videos. (BTW she took mepron).

So my theory is that SP is missing babs and treating bart when babs is still lurking in the background. It is possible to improve bart symptoms when on bart treatment, but it sounds like becoming completely asymptomatic is hard. Whereas Dr J has made many people completely asymptomatic by starting with babs treatment then moving on to bart. Of course neither of these doctors post results of patients after they have been treated, but I seem to find more people from Dr. J that are well now than SP.

Let me know what you think!

Cool, glad to know where you are leaning! your reasoning sounds very solid to me! Interesting to hear that final comment, that your impression is that Dr J has a bit of a higher success rate with patients.

Plus babesia seems to have a very high rate in ticks, especially ticks with lyme. There seems to be some sort of symbiotic relationship with lyme that helps babs thrive and also increases its virulence, so I think it's wise to not underestimate it! I wouldn't assume every lyme patient has it, but it's safe to assume a significant portion do.

Post Edited (sebreg) : 6/26/2018 7:30:57 AM (GMT-6)