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Can a bullseye rash go away on it's own?

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Posted 7/13/2018 4:15 PM (GMT 0)
Hi all,

I've been a lurker for a bit on the autoimmune boards and now lyme, finally got the courage to post.

I'm curious if anyone has experience with a bullseye rash that was there and gone within 2ish days? I get bitten by ticks pretty frequently (I live in a rural area and they sometimes just fall out of the pine trees), and after this rash my health started to go downhill pretty drastically. Increased joint pain, usually one knee or the other hurts, new joint pain (pinky finger, no injury), chest pain (I've had this off and on for years), muscle weakness, and a fatigue I've never felt in my life. I'm trying to stay as active as I can, but if I exercise, I have to take a nap afterward. Muscle cramps, twitches. Neck pain, headaches (I have to go to sleep with a heating pad on my neck every night.) Excessive bruising (they look a lot worse than they should).


Some of what has been tested thus far:

Ferritin: 12 (11-204 is standard range) I was put on Vitron-C a month ago, no change
ANA: Positive, 1:640 speckled pattern. I've been referred to a Rheum but my appointment is not until the end of August.
C-reactive protein: 0.05 (<=0.60 is standard range)
Rheumatoid Factor: <20 (<20 is standard range)
Sed rate: 9 (0-15 is standard)
ELISA Lyme test in 2016 - Negative
Western Blot test in 2016 - Negative

Long story short, I think since I've had a lot of my symptoms for a long time (10+ years) doc isn't interested in attempting to treat for Lyme, even with the rash. She stated that the rash will not resolve on it's own, therefore it's unlikely to be Lyme. Granted, this is a Doc that is affiliated with an organization that is not well known for their "admittance" that Lyme is in our area. Also, when I was tested for Lyme in 2013, they said since the test was negative, that I didn't have it. (Which, I've now found that isn't necessarily true)

Is it true that the rash (if it were the bullseye) would not have resolved on it's own, and that it has to be something else? I will say, the outer ring of the rash wasn't quite complete.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated! I have a pic, but it's not hosted on a site so until I figure that out, can't share it.

Edit: Forgot to mention my body temperature runs sub-normal (96.5-97.6) and I'm always cold, unless I'm outside in the heat too long, then I overheat and risk collapsing, which happened yesterday.

Edit: Fixed year for Lyme testing

Thanks in advance!!

Post Edited (jl6) : 7/16/2018 6:31:25 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 7/13/2018 4:26 PM (GMT 0)
Yes, bulls eye's rash can go away on its own. However, can the infection go away on its own?, no. Many people don't even get the bulls eye rash that you speak of and they still get sick.

Even if you don't feel symptoms and you have a very strong immune system, the bug will still stay in your system and will sit there waiting for an opportunity to do it's thing. This usually happens when your immune system is impaired due to stress, pregnancy, an accident, or something like that.

People can live with the bug for years and then suddenly it come to life and they begin to feel sick.

Best thing to do is to treat while it is early. You have the best chances to heal when you catch it early enough. Even a week or two can make a difference.

For those who cannot get a prescription, you can at least get Cats Claw or other herbs from your nutrition center to try to slow down the bug.
Posted 7/13/2018 4:43 PM (GMT 0)
Thank you for the response, this dr. doesn't seem to want to treat anything without a + blood test...she wants to pass me off to the Rheum and be done with me. I've read other stories of people with +ANA tests that ended up being Lyme instead of one of the various autoimmunes.

I will look into Cats Claw. My sister had previously given me some adrenal support capsules and I got so much worse after those, I want to be careful this time.

Thanks again!!
Posted 7/13/2018 5:08 PM (GMT 0)
I think the rash always goes away on its own without treatment. I think they linger longer than 2 days typically, but every person is different and different strains of pathogens create different reactions.

You need to find a new doctor. The lab tests for tick borne infections are beyond bad.

Sounds like you need treatment to me.
Posted 7/13/2018 5:24 PM (GMT 0)
Hey. Just because you've had this a long time doesn't mean treatment won't work. Many have recovered with either herbal treatment, long term antibiotics, a combination of both, or other alternative treatments.

If you want antibiotics, find an LLMD via ILADS or start a new post here looking for LLMD near your area.

If you want to try herbs, many here are doing Stephen Buhner's protocols for multiple infections. There are also protocols from Cowden, Zhang, Jernigan, and Byron White.

Some LLMD's do use herbs and orher alternative treatments.

You have options. I encourage you to start doing something. These infections don't go away on their own. Bodily dysfunction gets deeper and harder to unravel with time, so the sooner some kind of treatment starts, the better it is.
Posted 7/13/2018 5:36 PM (GMT 0)

jl6 said...
Hi all,

I've been a lurker for a bit on the autoimmune boards and now lyme, finally got the courage to post.

I'm curious if anyone has experience with a bullseye rash that was there and gone within 2ish days? I get bitten by ticks pretty frequently (I live in a rural area and they sometimes just fall out of the pine trees), and after this rash my health started to go downhill pretty drastically. Increased joint pain, usually one knee or the other hurts, new joint pain (pinky finger, no injury), chest pain (I've had this off and on for years), muscle weakness, and a fatigue I've never felt in my life. I'm trying to stay as active as I can, but if I exercise, I have to take a nap afterward. Muscle cramps, twitches. Neck pain, headaches (I have to go to sleep with a heating pad on my neck every night.) Excessive bruising (they look a lot worse than they should).


Some of what has been tested thus far:

Ferritin: 12 (11-204 is standard range) I was put on Vitron-C a month ago, no change
ANA: Positive, 1:640 speckled pattern. I've been referred to a Rheum but my appointment is not until the end of August.
C-reactive protein: 0.05 (<=0.60 is standard range)
Rheumatoid Factor: <20 (<20 is standard range)
Sed rate: 9 (0-15 is standard)
ELISA Lyme test in 2013 - Negative
Western Blot test in 2013 - Negative

Long story short, I think since I've had a lot of my symptoms for a long time (10+ years) doc isn't interested in attempting to treat for Lyme, even with the rash. She stated that the rash will not resolve on it's own, therefore it's unlikely to be Lyme. Granted, this is a Doc that is affiliated with an organization that is not well known for their "admittance" that Lyme is in our area. Also, when I was tested for Lyme in 2013, they said since the test was negative, that I didn't have it. (Which, I've now found that isn't necessarily true)

Is it true that the rash (if it were the bullseye) would not have resolved on it's own, and that it has to be something else? I will say, the outer ring of the rash wasn't quite complete.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated! I have a pic, but it's not hosted on a site so until I figure that out, can't share it.

Edit: Forgot to mention my body temperature runs sub-normal (96.5-97.6) and I'm always cold, unless I'm outside in the heat too long, then I overheat and risk collapsing, which happened yesterday.

Thanks in advance!!

Bullseye rashes can clear up without treatment...and they can also linger. The take-away is you had one...which means lyme disease. (Not to mention your symptoms that followed)

You don't need another lyme test - since you have the photo of the rash, plus symptoms - a LLMD will treat you.
But if you do want one - I suggest you do the Igenex Lyme WB IgM and IgG for a total of $250. Best bang for your buck.
You can call Igenex and they will send you a test kit for free. Then you have a Dr. sign the lab req, get the blood drawn and ship back to Igenex via Fedex.
It's not uncommon for lyme patients to have a positive ANA test....and be misdiagnosed with an autoimmune disease.

My body runs cold since lyme, too. Temperature dysregulation is also a common symptom.
Posted 7/13/2018 5:51 PM (GMT 0)
My bullseye rash cleared up without treatment. You need to get a copy of your western blot test. If you got bit by a tick and you had a Migrans rash and you have Lyme symptoms .....well...it looks like lyme...smells like lyme...taste like lyme smile get a copy of your WB.
Posted 7/13/2018 7:24 PM (GMT 0)
Thank you everyone! I've seen several docs and since my blood tests all come back fine, they send me to PT for joint pains, or tell me maybe I just need 10 hours of sleep a night. I would always eventually give up. I can't this time. I have one semester of college (I'm a older college student) and I worry I won't get through it the way I feel now.

I have a name of someone close (and supposedly very good LLMD) that I will be contacting to see if they take my insurance. If not, I will start another thread to find someone.

Again, I can't thank you guys enough...this is the first ray of hope I've had in a long time.
Posted 7/16/2018 3:25 PM (GMT 0)
DonN, as far as I know, my western blot results were as follows:

Lyme Western Blot IgG - Negative
Lyme Western Blot IgM - Negative
Lyme Final Result - Negative

I'm not sure if this means all bands were tested or if this is all inclusive of all bands?

I did go ahead and have blood drawn again for a Lyme screen since it was already scheduled, which is only the Elisa test. AND...I must've been a space cadet when I orignally posted. My original Lyme tests were in 2016, not 2013, not that it likely matters.

Thought I had the pic figured out...but it's not loading. Grr....

Post Edited (jl6) : 7/16/2018 9:39:20 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 7/16/2018 6:23 PM (GMT 0)
God these docs are quacks... Rash is pathognomonic. You have Lyme by definition. Your continued health problems are consistent with Lyme disease. Rash's go away on their own all the time. They are only primary symptoms caused by the introduction of those spirochetes into the skin and the local inflammatory reaction. However, spirochetes don't stay in the skin. They enter the blood stream and disseminate to the heart, joints, musculoskeletal, and nervous system. Hence the rash tends to clear up. The chronic and multiple rashes are much less typical as I understand.
Posted 7/16/2018 6:50 PM (GMT 0)

jl6 said...
DonN, as far as I know, my western blot results were as follows:

Lyme Western Blot IgG - Negative
Lyme Western Blot IgM - Negative
Lyme Final Result - Negative

I'm not sure if this means all bands were tested or if this is all inclusive of all bands?

I did go ahead and have blood drawn again for a Lyme screen since it was already scheduled, which is only the Elisa test. AND...I must've been a space cadet when I orignally posted. My original Lyme tests were in 2016, not 2013, not that it likely matters.

Thought I had the pic figured out...but it's not loading. Grr....

Ask to see the information - ie the bands for the Western Blot IgG and IgG.


The Elisa isn't worth it.

Get a lyme WB through Igenex if you want another test ...and see a LLMD.
Posted 7/16/2018 7:25 PM (GMT 0)
Ah, ok. I assumed since the overall IgG, IgM were negative that all bands in those areas were negative. I'll ask for a copy.

Yeah, not hopeful for the Elisa, however I did read today (On the Elisa site) that autoimmune processes can cause a false positive Elisa, so I'm curious how that will turn out since my ANA was moderately high.

I just saw the prices in Igenex...! I'll be going back to part time work once my last college semester begins...I can't afford that right now. I do have a LLMD I'm planning to call tomorrow. (Her office isn't open on Monday's) and I'm really hoping I can get in same day (if she takes my insurance). In the meantime, my Cat's Claw is on the way, I'm working on going Gluten free (I think I'm mostly there) and will see where I go from here.

Thanks again all...it's very disheartening to be sick and have your doc suggest a counselor, or psychiatrist for "stimulants" to stay awake. After my first Lyme tests came back negative, a Rheumatologist and Cardiologist were suggested....I guess I just wish it wasn't such a controversial disease, and doctors felt they could treat based on symptoms even if blood work (on an admittedly awful test) was negative.
Posted 7/16/2018 7:30 PM (GMT 0)
The Igenex Lyme WB is $250 total - that’s all you need to get (if you do want to test)
Posted 7/16/2018 7:43 PM (GMT 0)
Oh! I didn't see the breakdowns, that's a little more reasonable! I don't think *I* need the test to confirm, but I may go ahead if it takes awhile to find an LLMD so I can try to get my doc to treat if those return positive.

Another try at the pic, apologies for the size. I kinda question it since it's not quite a complete outer circle:

http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r609/jl6/Rash/B62AA00B-C59B-4E3D-9B41-A1C74A0BDC58_zpsu0b9ox3i.jpeg
Posted 7/16/2018 8:54 PM (GMT 0)
How long after the bite were you tested? Antibodies can take up to a month to reach peak levels and should never be relied upon if you have the rash.
Posted 7/16/2018 9:46 PM (GMT 0)
Back in 2016, I never saw a rash. This rash I found in April and doc just had the Elisa test done July 13th. (Which, results just came back from that...negative as expected.) Doc had the nerve to say "good news, your results are negative." So...my symptoms don't matter? And I just have to wait for the Rheumatologist? /sigh I'm calling the LLMD in my area, but if she doesn't take my insurance I'll do the Ingenex test. I wish we could order those tests without needing the dr to sign off. sad
Posted 7/16/2018 10:12 PM (GMT 0)
I'm sorry jl6. Maybe I'm being a dunce lol, but I'm really confused with your timeline. You're saying you were sick for 10 years... but got tested in 2013 and got sick after a rash? In 2013? But now you're talking about 2016 and testing this July? Is this a new rash? I'm so confused.

Typically rashes occur at the very beginning of illness but there are rare cases where they don't or remain chronic I think. It only takes a month to seroconvert so from April to July you "should" be positive. Without seeing your actual western blot results it's hard to tell if you're actually negative or just "negative". "Negative" meaning actually positive on my bands but not sufficient to satisfy standard criteria. Typically a rash is pathognomonic meaning it is characteristic of Lyme and nothing else. Though, in some places where Lyme disease "doesn't exist", like the south US, there is another illness called Masters disease which also has a bullseye rash. It's been speculated to be caused by another species of borrelia but not actually proven but I believe responds to antibiotics. I don't think Lyme tests can detect it though. And it's often considered "mild" but that might just be some BS.Who really knows at this point.

If your tests truly are negative you might consider another species of borrelia or a coinfection. Or perhaps an unrelated pathogen. A lot, and by a lot I really mean all, autoimmune diseases are likely caused by undetected pathogens. So you may choose to take the same approach to Lyme disease if you can't get an adequate diagnosis. An LLMD might help you or you may take to an Herbal protocol like Buhners and source your antibiotics naturally. They work pretty darned well. I tested positive for Lyme Elisa but not western blot, even by Igenex. So I never had any hard proof of Lyme disease but I've treated it just the same and done very very well.
Posted 7/16/2018 10:37 PM (GMT 0)
She corrected - it was 2016 (not 2013) when he first tested
Posted 7/16/2018 10:39 PM (GMT 0)
Re: photo - looks like a bullseye to me
Posted 7/17/2018 12:38 AM (GMT 0)
She. smile
Also, I've recently read that Lyme can cause endometriosis, which I've been getting treatment for since mid-2016. It got progressively worse until August 2017 when I went on NuvaRing. If it stops working, Lupron is my next step.

Sorry for the confusion Psilociraptor, I honestly could've contracted Lyme at any time from childhood till now. I just never had a rash until April of this year. I insisted on the test in 2016 due to my symptoms at the time. My knee pains over the years have been attributed to anything from growing pains when I was younger, to my glutes just not being strong enough and being sent for physical therapy and cortisone shots. Neither of which helped.

I had a sharp decline in May of this year, so I assume the rash has/had something to do with it.

Thanks Girlie, I was on the fence about whether it was the bullseye or not.
Posted 7/17/2018 4:31 AM (GMT 0)
Okay so you were sick before but got worse after the rash? Think I got it now:P picture is hard for me to tell. I don't know if it's just the pic hut it doesn't look like a full ring. But idk. I would still treat and see if I could provoke a reaction
Posted 7/17/2018 3:59 PM (GMT 0)
Update- the LLMD I tried to see isn’t answering the phone, and I found a board action against her so she may not be taking new patients. And she doesn’t take insurance. So I went to urgent care and they put me on doxy for 10 days to see if there’s any improvement. Doc wasn’t sure either if pic is a bullseye, but she also said not all cases are textbook. That’s more than my other doc did.

So, it’s a start! Hopeful that it helps! I know this is probably only the beginning, but I’m getting somewhere!

Thanks again for all the advice!
Posted 7/17/2018 4:09 PM (GMT 0)
Awesome! That's great. Honestly 10 days will probably do very little in the long run but it should give you an idea of whether you're on the right track. You will either feel better or worse first and then better in most cases. If you can't get in with an LLMD you can look into Buhner's protocol to treat herbally. That is not some woo woo softy bs. Some of those plants are potent antibiotics and I have put myself about 90% into remission with
Posted 7/17/2018 6:27 PM (GMT 0)
New member, do try and get your western blot test.
It should show which bands are positive if any.
Not to scare you, but a Rheumatologist will probably want to put you on some kind of steroid (prednisone). 16 yrs ago that's what they did for me and the steroids shut down my immune system. It was all downhill from there. If you had the Migrans rash and you have the symptoms, then you more than likely have lyme.
I'm doing the Buhner protocol also. You'll get it narrowed down. Keep going, don't stop.
Posted 7/17/2018 8:03 PM (GMT 0)
Psilociraptor
Cat's Claw is on order, I'll look in to the other herbs on the Buhner protocol. I agree that herbs can do some powerful things so I'm sure that will help also.

DonN
My PCP only ran the Elisa test Friday, the urgent care doc today ran the following:

Lyme AB/Western Blot Reflex
Ehrlichia AB Panel
Rocky Mtn Spotted Fever, IgG, Qn

I'll be sure to ask for the details of the tests to see if any bands are positive.
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