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Posted 9/3/2018 10:09 PM (GMT 0)

Gladioli66 said...
10mg might be OK for someone who is not very toxic, but for those of us that are it would be much too high a starting dose. I started with 1mg. Better to start with a low dose and see how one reacts. This was my personal experience as well as many others on FDC.

Here is another website with more info. on ACC and obtaining chelators:

https://www.livingnetwork.co.za/chelationnetwork/chelation-the-andy-cutler-protocol/

Lapis_29 said...

WalkingbyFaith said...
Lapis,

Thanks for that valuable tidbit. Need a Rx. Hope I can get one.

Can you get low dose Rx? That's one of the big disadvantages of Rx - one size fits all plus all kinds of toxic fillers.

DMPS is usually bought from a compounding pharmacy, as such they will usually be willing to make the tablets whatever size you like.

10 mg is a good size to start out with.

i linked directly to the study that i quoted, you can read it

DMPS is a superior chelator of mercury than DMSA, every study shows that. DMSA will work, yes, but DMPS is more effective thats why i recommend it.
Posted 9/3/2018 11:29 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks to all of you. This is a really good thread on the topic with lots of solid, detailed information, clarification, and needed discussion. Much appreciated.
Posted 9/4/2018 12:28 AM (GMT 0)
Lapis,

No where in the document you linked to: /link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40495-016-0068-8
does it mention DMPS. The article talks about Fe and Cu toxicity, thalassemia, and hemochromatosis.

I am not trying to give you grief here, but the study you mention is not what you linked to.


Lapis_29 said...

Gladioli66 said...
10mg might be OK for someone who is not very toxic, but for those of us that are it would be much too high a starting dose. I started with 1mg. Better to start with a low dose and see how one reacts. This was my personal experience as well as many others on FDC.

Here is another website with more info. on ACC and obtaining chelators:

https://www.livingnetwork.co.za/chelationnetwork/chelation-the-andy-cutler-protocol/

Lapis_29 said...

WalkingbyFaith said...
Lapis,

Thanks for that valuable tidbit. Need a Rx. Hope I can get one.

Can you get low dose Rx? That's one of the big disadvantages of Rx - one size fits all plus all kinds of toxic fillers.

DMPS is usually bought from a compounding pharmacy, as such they will usually be willing to make the tablets whatever size you like.

10 mg is a good size to start out with.

i linked directly to the study that i quoted, you can read it

DMPS is a superior chelator of mercury than DMSA, every study shows that. DMSA will work, yes, but DMPS is more effective thats why i recommend it.

Posted 9/4/2018 2:45 AM (GMT 0)
[quote]

Lapis,

No where in the document you linked to:


/link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40495-016-0068-8

does it mention DMPS. The article talks about Fe and Cu toxicity, thalassemia, and hemochromatosis.

I am not trying to give you grief here, but the study you mention is not what you linked to.


[quote]

that study just showed DMSA was not good for long term exposure as it doesn't penetrates into the cells.

this study directly compared DMSA vs DMPS for mercury chelation. Scroll down and look at figure 1. You can see DMPS chelated roughly 300% more mercury than DMSA did. The scientists concluded that DMPS was the chelator of choice for mercury chelation. DMSA did much better with lead however, while DMPS outperformed on chelating arsenic and copper

In fact DMSA chelated just a tiny bit more mercury than EDTA did, and Andy always insisted EDTA did not chelate mercury.

www.journalrepository.org/media/journals/BJMMR_12/2014/Jan/Busch492013BJMMR6875_1.pdf

this is from 2014, Andy never had this info. In fact Andy stopped paying attention to new studies and new research a long time ago, especially as his own health was not good recently. DMPS is a better chelator in every sense for mercury.

Post Edited (Lapis_29) : 9/3/2018 8:54:00 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/4/2018 3:18 AM (GMT 0)
You had a completely different "take away" from the first study your linked to than I did.

The other study you linked to is horribly flawed. According to Cutler, no one can tell anything by way of a challenge test. His comment has always been, there is NO good reason to do a challenge/provocation test. They are dangerous and as people excrete at different rates over different time frames these values are useless. And there is no way to measure body burden because much of mercury and some other metals are not in any accessible body compartment. Studies are often horribly flawed because those doing the studies don't even understand the chemical properties of the substances they are testing. I am only repeating what Cutler has said time and again.


Lapis_29 said...
[quote]

Lapis,

No where in the document you linked to:


/link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40495-016-0068-8

does it mention DMPS. The article talks about Fe and Cu toxicity, thalassemia, and hemochromatosis.

I am not trying to give you grief here, but the study you mention is not what you linked to.


[quote]

that study just showed DMSA was not good for long term exposure as it doesn't penetrates into the cells.

this study directly compared DMSA vs DMPS for mercury chelation. Scroll down and look at figure 1. You can see DMPS chelated roughly 300% more mercury than DMSA did. The scientists concluded that DMPS was the chelator of choice for mercury chelation. DMSA did much better with lead however, while DMPS outperformed on chelating arsenic and copper

In fact DMSA chelated just a tiny bit more mercury than EDTA did, and Andy always insisted EDTA did not chelate mercury.

www.journalrepository.org/media/journals/BJMMR_12/2014/Jan/Busch492013BJMMR6875_1.pdf

this is from 2014, Andy never had this info. In fact Andy stopped paying attention to new studies and new research a long time ago, especially as his own health was not good recently. DMPS is a better chelator in every sense for mercury.

Post Edited (Gladioli66) : 9/4/2018 6:34:21 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/4/2018 3:29 AM (GMT 0)

Gladioli66 said...
You had a completely different "take away" from the first study your linked to than I did.

The other study you linked to is horribly flawed. They are comparing urine test results for all compounds when the metals chelated by DMSA and DMPS leave the body by different routes. One the majority by urine and the other by the gut. This study makes no distinction. And, according to Cutler, no one can tell anything by way of a challenge test. His comment has always been, there is NO good reason to do a challenge/provocation test. They are dangerous and as people excrete at different rates over different time frames these values are useless. And there is no way to measure body burden because much of mercury and some other metals are not in any accessible body compartment. Studies are often horribly flawed because those doing the studies don't even understand the chemical properties of the substances they are testing. I am only repeating what Cutler has said time and again. And I will not be making any further comments on this.


Lapis_29 said...
[quote]

Lapis,

No where in the document you linked to:


/link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40495-016-0068-8

does it mention DMPS. The article talks about Fe and Cu toxicity, thalassemia, and hemochromatosis.

I am not trying to give you grief here, but the study you mention is not what you linked to.


[quote]

that study just showed DMSA was not good for long term exposure as it doesn't penetrates into the cells.

this study directly compared DMSA vs DMPS for mercury chelation. Scroll down and look at figure 1. You can see DMPS chelated roughly 300% more mercury than DMSA did. The scientists concluded that DMPS was the chelator of choice for mercury chelation. DMSA did much better with lead however, while DMPS outperformed on chelating arsenic and copper

In fact DMSA chelated just a tiny bit more mercury than EDTA did, and Andy always insisted EDTA did not chelate mercury.

www.journalrepository.org/media/journals/BJMMR_12/2014/Jan/Busch492013BJMMR6875_1.pdf

this is from 2014, Andy never had this info. In fact Andy stopped paying attention to new studies and new research a long time ago, especially as his own health was not good recently. DMPS is a better chelator in every sense for mercury.

you want the mercury to leave via the urine/kindeys. That way its leaving very quickly after being chelated. very efficient.

IF it leaves via the intestinal track it will stay in the body for hours and hours and has a real potential to be re-absorbed back into the body. Not good.
Posted 9/4/2018 3:36 AM (GMT 0)
another study which shows DMPS penetrates into cells, while DMSA does not

Both DMSA
and DMPS have been
shown to be clinically
effective heavy metal
chelators in human
studies of mercury
toxicity,70-75 particularly
since they both
chelate inorganic and
organic mercury.71
DMSA acts only as an
extracellular chelator,
whereas DMPS enters
hepatocytes73 and renal
cells,76 although it
is still considered primarily an extracellular chelator.73
DMSA is less toxic because of its inability
to enter cells or bile,73 with an LD50 of 13.73 mM/
kg, approximately twice the LD50 of DMPS, which
is 6.53 mM/kg.73



www.altmedrev.com/archive/publications/7/6/456.pdf

Post Edited (Lapis_29) : 9/3/2018 9:44:18 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/4/2018 3:43 AM (GMT 0)
another study here where they conclude DMPS is the first choice for mercury chelation, DMSA is second choice

/pdfs.semanticscholar.org/8cb4/146a3dbb79b9bb5eadec3ff49ad231c022cf.pdf
Posted 9/4/2018 3:49 AM (GMT 0)
one more thing

DMSA's main route of elimination is the intestines, so it passes all of the mercury through your gut. That could potentially create a lot of disruption in the microbiome and destroy good microbes and disrupt digestion and elimination.
Posted 9/4/2018 12:32 PM (GMT 0)
In the Cutler protocol, the main chelating agent for mercury is ALA. For mercury chelation, as I understand it, DMPS or DMSA is used in amounts usually less than ALA as a complement or as a starter chelator.
Posted 9/4/2018 2:45 PM (GMT 0)

delisa said...
In the Cutler protocol, the main chelating agent for mercury is ALA. For mercury chelation, as I understand it, DMPS or DMSA is used in amounts usually less than ALA as a complement or as a starter chelator.

lipoic acid is actually a fairly weak chelator of mercury, but its the only one that crosses the blood brain barrier, so its the only one that can chelate mercury from the brain.

but DMPS is a much much more powerful mercury attractant and is best for mercury in the entire body (outside the brain)

Using DMPS and Lipoic acid together is very powerful and effective. That is the way to go in my opinion and according to the studies that I have read. And I have researched this quite a bit.

good article here about a guy who used DMSA and hit a dead end, then started using DMPS and made real progress. This has also been my experience.

www.mercurylife.com/mercurylife/chelating_out_of_the_darkness/
Posted 9/4/2018 3:16 PM (GMT 0)
The information in this thread is at the very least, woefully inadequate for anyone exploring whether heavy metals is contributing to their health issues.
Please consider joining the Yahoo Frequent Dose Chelation group or the Andy Cutler Think Tank on Facebook. Also the LivingNetwork website mentioned in previous post for an archive of hairtest results from people around the world as well as ACC basics.
I have been a member of FDC for a very long time and it is a wonderful and knowledgeable group. My road has been extremely difficult because of the wrongheaded dangerous information that is out there on the web. I had multiple consultations with Andy and gained much info. directly from him, but that certainly does not make me an expert. I was so damaged and so toxic by the time I got to Andy all because of practitioners who did not have a clue what they were doing.

One last thing as this is a Lyme and coinfection forum, many on FDC have found it difficult to resolve any type of infection until adequately chelated if metals are an issue. It is definitely something worth exploring.
Posted 9/4/2018 3:24 PM (GMT 0)

delisa said...
In the Cutler protocol, the main chelating agent for mercury is ALA. For mercury chelation, as I understand it, DMPS or DMSA is used in amounts usually less than ALA as a complement or as a starter chelator.

From what I've read in the past about Cutler's protocol, DMSA or DMPS is used first to chelate the body and then ALA is added to chelate the brain.

My impression was that ALA is safer and more gentle and won't cause injury if used in low dose according to his schedule.

Safety and few if any side effects are what is most important to me.

I do have major bowel issues with constipation. It seems to flare up worse when I am more toxic from increasing herbs or from dumping more toxins. Clogging my gut up with mercury would not be a good thing.

Does sauna or simply sweating really get heavy metals out? Doctors have told me it does. What did Cutler say? Anyone use those therapies?
Posted 9/4/2018 3:38 PM (GMT 0)

WalkingbyFaith said...

delisa said...
In the Cutler protocol, the main chelating agent for mercury is ALA. For mercury chelation, as I understand it, DMPS or DMSA is used in amounts usually less than ALA as a complement or as a starter chelator.

From what I've read in the past about Cutler's protocol, DMSA or DMPS is used first to chelate the body and then ALA is added to chelate the brain.

My impression was that ALA is safer and more gentle and won't cause injury if used in low dose according to his schedule.

Safety and few if any side effects are what is most important to me.

I do have major bowel issues with constipation. It seems to flare up worse when I am more toxic from increasing herbs or from dumping more toxins. Clogging my gut up with mercury would not be a good thing.

Does sauna or simply sweating really get heavy metals out? Doctors have told me it does. What did Cutler say? Anyone use those therapies?

if you have bowel issues then do NOT use DMSA, bad idea. Get some DMPS.

yes sauna does remove mercury, its very helpful, but if you are legit mercury toxic its not enough.


i htink using DMPS and lipoic acid at the same time is the way to go.
Posted 9/4/2018 4:10 PM (GMT 0)
I have to agree with Gladioli66. For more useful, researched and experienced safe chelation information than is possible on this board, follow up with the sites she recommends.
Posted 9/4/2018 4:22 PM (GMT 0)
There is not a simple answer to your question without knowing more. Have you had a hairtest? Do you know what metals you are dealing with? Are you prone to GI yeast? How long has it been since your amalgam removal or known exposure to metals? Do you have kidney disease? Some cannot add ALA until they have chelated with a water soluble agent, clearing away some of the extracellular metals first. Otherwise the ALA is just pulling more metals into systemic circulation before you have cleared out what is already there. If used properly DMSA and DMPS are just as safe as ALA. People can have allergic reactions to DMPS or DMSA, DMPS being more likely. ALA not much allergy potential there.

Low and slow is best way to go.

Sauna removes extracellular metals only.


To get the most comprehensive help try the resources I mentioned. It may save you a lot of grief.

WalkingbyFaith said...

delisa said...
In the Cutler protocol, the main chelating agent for mercury is ALA. For mercury chelation, as I understand it, DMPS or DMSA is used in amounts usually less than ALA as a complement or as a starter chelator.

From what I've read in the past about Cutler's protocol, DMSA or DMPS is used first to chelate the body and then ALA is added to chelate the brain.

My impression was that ALA is safer and more gentle and won't cause injury if used in low dose according to his schedule.

Safety and few if any side effects are what is most important to me.

I do have major bowel issues with constipation. It seems to flare up worse when I am more toxic from increasing herbs or from dumping more toxins. Clogging my gut up with mercury would not be a good thing.

Does sauna or simply sweating really get heavy metals out? Doctors have told me it does. What did Cutler say? Anyone use those therapies?

Post Edited (Gladioli66) : 9/4/2018 10:28:01 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/5/2018 12:02 AM (GMT 0)
Well, I sent a message to the doctor that I was interested in getting the Doctor's Data hair test. The office replied back that she thinks the challenge test is more accurate and that I can discuss at my next appointment. I have one scheduled in a few weeks but am probably going to push it out to Dec. I just can't afford it. I just had a phone appt in August, and I don't follow much of her recommendations. Too much pills. Too much expense. Body can't take much more supplements.

Anyway, can you get the test without a doctor? How much does it cost?
Posted 9/5/2018 12:38 AM (GMT 0)

WalkingbyFaith said...
Well, I sent a message to the doctor that I was interested in getting the Doctor's Data hair test. The office replied back that she thinks the challenge test is more accurate and that I can discuss at my next appointment. I have one scheduled in a few weeks but am probably going to push it out to Dec. I just can't afford it. I just had a phone appt in August, and I don't follow much of her recommendations. Too much pills. Too much expense. Body can't take much more supplements.

Anyway, can you get the test without a doctor? How much does it cost?

Yes .. if your thinking of going this road these are the steps I’d recommend steps nelow.

I will say this first.. going down this path is a game changer. New protocol,new way of looking at why your afflicted with Lyme, (and Bart and bab, and various skin conditions)


1, Join the Andy Cutler Chleation Facebook group.

2, go to files section and scan through the “Index of important files”

3. Find the “Flow Chart start here” section.

Directlabs.com is testing co recommend

Test name had changed , use to be “MIM hair test”.

It’s about a $100 investment to see if you mercury toxic..

See you on the other side

Post Edited (Mark FW) : 9/4/2018 6:42:06 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/5/2018 12:50 AM (GMT 0)
Yes, you can get the test on your own. I believe this is a link to the test. I am used to the doc ordering the kit for me. This is a link to a third party vendor. I still recommend you join Yahoo F-D-C and ask them about any plans for a chelation challenge test. You can do everything on your own without a doc including chelation. I have already expressed my opinion on docs who do challenge tests, so won't repeat my opinion again.

https://www.directlabs.com/TestDetail.aspx?testid=68

When you get the results you can post them here: http://livingnetwork.co.za/, send a link to FDC and the mods will interpret it for you. Hairtest can tell you so much, but reading them is not straight forward which is why Cutler wrote the book Hair Test Interpretation: Finding Hidden Toxicities.

All the Best!

WalkingbyFaith said...
Well, I sent a message to the doctor that I was interested in getting the Doctor's Data hair test. The office replied back that she thinks the challenge test is more accurate and that I can discuss at my next appointment. I have one scheduled in a few weeks but am probably going to push it out to Dec. I just can't afford it. I just had a phone appt in August, and I don't follow much of her recommendations. Too much pills. Too much expense. Body can't take much more supplements.

Anyway, can you get the test without a doctor? How much does it cost?

Posted 9/5/2018 1:37 AM (GMT 0)
you can buy DMPS here without a script. Sometimes they are out of certain doses. I have purchased frm here before and they are legit


/www.livingsupplements.com/
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