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Posted Yesterday 9:43 PM (GMT 0)
Hi everyone,
I finally got co-infection done after spending the summer in Wisconsin and being paranoid about reinfection. I got my results back today and I'm wondering if you can help interpret.

I went through Medical Diagnostic Laboratories, and the question I have is about my positive Bartonella test.
I was only IGG positive, a 2.76, with positive being >1.11, but I still get confused about the difference between IGM and IGG. Does this mean I still have Bartonella? For the most part, I have pretty mild symptoms remaining that I had attributed to being remaining lyme symptoms. I did redo the lyme WB but now only have band 41 as positive on the IGM.

Thanks in advance!

Post Edited (PDXtransplant) : 12/1/2018 2:48:00 PM (GMT-7)

Posted Yesterday 9:49 PM (GMT 0)
“..did redo the lyme WB but now only have band 41 as positive on the IGG.”

Antibody testing shouldn’t be used to determine whether you’ve treated long enough. You need to go by symptoms
Posted Yesterday 9:55 PM (GMT 0)
Previously I thought I'd only had lyme because I made pretty fast progress plus I'd never done any testing for coinfections. Two different doctors said I could 'possibly' have babesia and/or 'possibly' have bartonella, and so I've done some protocols that included some products that could work for Bab/Bart, but that was never the focus. So that was really only a half hearted treatment, I guess.
Posted Yesterday 9:57 PM (GMT 0)

PDXtransplant said...
Previously I thought I'd only had lyme because I made pretty fast progress plus I'd never done any testing for coinfections. Two different doctors said I could 'possibly' have babesia and/or 'possibly' have bartonella, and so I've done some protocols that included some products that could work for Bab/Bart, but that was never the focus. So that was really only a half hearted treatment, I guess.

Did the treatments cause a herx?

Did you use Rifampin or Rifabutin for Bart
And antimalarials/anti parasiticd for Babesia ?
Posted Yesterday 10:13 PM (GMT 0)
Yes, though not after the first 6 months of treatment. I didn't use either of the ones you mentioned for bart, just some herbs that might be good for bart in addition to lyme. I did do an antimalarial though.
Posted Yesterday 10:27 PM (GMT 0)
I tested initially with MDL, got IGM=Negative and IGG=Positive 3.01. Positive for Bartonella Hensalae symptomatic.

I then tested with Galaxy to validate the result, ePCR negative, IFA titers 1:256. another positive. began treatment for 7 months.

I repeated Galaxy IFA, still 1:256. titers dont go down for all people, am symptom free now i believe.

its probably years for these antibodies to go away, and cant be used as a gauge for progress.

Interestingly, Galaxy promotes using their IFA and ePCR tests before, during and after treatment in their Bartonella test protocol.
Posted Yesterday 10:46 PM (GMT 0)
I think because I didn't know I had bart in the first place only 'possibly' and therefore never directly treated it, I'm wondering if my remaining symptoms though mild could be bart not lyme.
Posted Yesterday 11:20 PM (GMT 0)
Really can't go off of an IGG result to determine if the infection is still active. But it's possible your remaining symptoms are bartonella since the test result would indicate you've been exposed to it.
Posted Yesterday 11:30 PM (GMT 0)
Depending on the symptoms too, could be other things...not always the infection(s)

like vitamin deficiencies, thyroid, yeast, mast cell, etc
Posted Yesterday 11:43 PM (GMT 0)

sierraDon said...
Depending on the symptoms too, could be other things...not always the infection(s)

like vitamin deficiencies, thyroid, yeast, mast cell, etc

Good advice, always important to explore the various angles and possibilities. It's rarely just one thing!
Posted Today 12:53 AM (GMT 0)
Ok, thanks for the info, everyone!
Posted Today 8:35 AM (GMT 0)

PDXtransplant said...
Hi everyone,
I finally got co-infection done after spending the summer in Wisconsin and being paranoid about reinfection. I got my results back today and I'm wondering if you can help interpret.

I went through Medical Diagnostic Laboratories, and the question I have is about my positive Bartonella test.
I was only IGG positive, a 2.76, with positive being >1.11, but I still get confused about the difference between IGM and IGG. Does this mean I still have Bartonella? For the most part, I have pretty mild symptoms remaining that I had attributed to being remaining lyme symptoms. I did redo the lyme WB but now only have band 41 as positive on the IGM.

Thanks in advance!

Assuming the test is correct IGG pos usually means you were exposed to something and developed antibodies but you don’t have a current infection.
Posted Today 9:17 AM (GMT 0)

meowee said...



Assuming the test is correct IGG pos usually means you were exposed to something and developed antibodies but you don’t have a current infection.

Not necessarily - with lyme IgG can still be an active infection (just an older one) - this may be true for Bartonella as well.
Posted Today 1:14 PM (GMT 0)
I have wondered about this for a while too. about the active or recent infection with IGG.

i tested IGM negative, IGG Positive. and ePCR negative, IFA positive. prior to treatment, almost two years after tick bite. i was symptomatic at that point since i had no treatment, but symptomatic with what who knows. then proceeded with treatment with the mino-azith-rifabutin both target bartonella and lyme. i seemingly get better.

same scenario with babesia, IGM negative, IGG Positive. test repeated with Igenex, ELISA, PCR, FISH all negative Igenix. i never had any of the hallmark babesia symptoms. treated for 6-8 weeks with biaxin-plaquenil-mepron-ceftin prior to switching to bartonella.

but who's to say that it wasn't the lyme the whole time since i was IGM negative (acute/active infection), and the rifabutin was just hitting lyme. I think mpost posted on this topic before.

Post Edited (sierraDon) : 12/2/2018 7:05:08 AM (GMT-7)

Posted Today 3:19 PM (GMT 0)
Not testing positive for IGM but positive IGG doesn't mean one can rule out active infection. If you look at Monica Embers' and Nicole Baumgarth's studies on the immune system dynamics of borrelia and host, there is a varied spectrum of responses. Some people mount both IGM and IGG response with IGM tapering over time, others mount a chronic IGM response with no IGG response, while others mount no antibody response at all. And there are plenty of people who only had IGG bands but had symptoms of active infection. Borrelia can also affect how the immune system responds to other infections.

There are a lot of variations in response to borrelia which is why the antibody tests are inadequate to say the least. These infections often dysregulate the immune system, borrelia is both immune-suppressing and evasive, so certainly wouldn't use antibody tests to rule out presence of infection when the infection itself can be dysregulating the immune response or disguising itself by changing protein coats.
Posted Today 4:56 PM (GMT 0)

sebreg said...
Not testing positive for IGM but positive IGG doesn't mean one can rule out active infection. If you look at Monica Embers' and Nicole Baumgarth's studies on the immune system dynamics of borrelia and host, there is a varied spectrum of responses. Some people mount both IGM and IGG response with IGM tapering over time, others mount a chronic IGM response with no IGG response, while others mount no antibody response at all. And there are plenty of people who only had IGG bands but had symptoms of active infection. Borrelia can also affect how the immune system responds to other infections.

There are a lot of variations in response to borrelia which is why the antibody tests are inadequate to say the least. These infections often dysregulate the immune system, borrelia is both immune-suppressing and evasive, so certainly wouldn't use antibody tests to rule out presence of infection when the infection itself can be dysregulating the immune response or disguising itself by changing protein coats.

while i agree the antibody tests are of limited value, just looking at my evidence. it doesnt add up or make a lot of sense, speaks largely to the inadequancy of testing

babesia: IGM negative, FIsh Negative, PCR negative, IGG Positive. tested at both IGenex, MDL. Asymptomatic
bartonella: IGM Negative, PCR Negative, IGG positive, IFA positive (Galaxy). tested at both IGenex, MDL, Galaxy. Symptomatic (lyme or bartonella?)
Lyme: IGM positive, IGG Positive, WB Blot CDC Positive, WB Igenix positive, C6 Peptide positive. tested at Igenex, MDL. symptomatic (lyme or bartonella?)

i suppose if i had more PCR or IGM i would be inclined to think more of an active infection earlier this year for the coinfections. but the fact that i just have IGG antibody for the coinfections, but across the board positive for lyme, while the direct methods failed duplicate times across various labs for the coinfections.

it all doest make much sense, i dont care at this point, as i am largely better. my outstanding issues seem to be related to vitamin deficiences and candida now.
Posted Today 5:29 PM (GMT 0)
Yeah unfortunately given the nature of the tests and the fact these pathogens can hole up in certain tissues it can be hard to make clear causal connections linking a pathogen to a specific symptom and even knowing if it is present/causing symptoms in the first place. I really do wish we had more investments in better diagnostics, the status quo leaves too much room for guessing.

While sometimes I'm frustrated by my sensitivity to treatment, my responses to specific therapeutics have usually helped guide me by giving me indirect confirmation of the underlying pathogen. For instance babesia treatment flares my baseline ANS symptoms, and this response is consistent across various babesia therapeutics. It's not elegant, but sometimes the best we can do is work with empiric assessments.

And like you've mentioned, always good to look beyond the pathogens. While they can be important, they are usually not the only factor and sometimes are merely tangential players to some other disease mechanism. Each case is different, we often have to work through a lot of trial and error!
Posted Today 5:50 PM (GMT 0)
yeah thats the difficult part, all the trial and error. and even with that, often times it is not clear cut.

i guess i am fortunate that i was able to reach the level i am at, its been almost a year since starting this journey.

i think its been mino-azith-rifabutin coupled with stevia, oregano oil, monolaurin and biocidin LSF that was a game changer for me.

hopeful that 2019 is a landmark year for progress with TBD for everyone.
Posted Today 7:38 PM (GMT 0)

sierraDon said...


Interestingly, Galaxy promotes using their IFA and ePCR tests before, during and after treatment in their Bartonella test protocol.

I email with a patient of Dr. M (bart guru) and he gets periodic testing (I think it's a pcr test) to gauge treatment success.
Not sure how they are able to do that...since pcr can 'miss' the bacteria....unless they are more thorough than your 'regular' labs....and spend a lot of time looking for that dna?
Posted Today 8:12 PM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...

sierraDon said...


Interestingly, Galaxy promotes using their IFA and ePCR tests before, during and after treatment in their Bartonella test protocol.

I email with a patient of Dr. M (bart guru) and he gets periodic testing (I think it's a pcr test) to gauge treatment success.
Not sure how they are able to do that...since pcr can 'miss' the bacteria....unless they are more thorough than your 'regular' labs....and spend a lot of time looking for that dna?

I would be interested to hear which one, probably ePCR if with Dr M. Galaxy claims their ePCR is more thorough than normal PCR. however i dont know how thorough it can be with blood. I suspect if its tissue sample you have a better chance of finding a positive result.

i had both ePCR (Galaxy) and PCR (MDL and Igenex) with blood, always negative for me.
Posted Today 9:34 PM (GMT 0)
In Cure Unknown, the author's son's WB had zero or almost zero bands showing when he was asymptomatic and seemed 'well', but then lit up again to CDC positive either through a relapse or reinfection, I'm not sure. I thought I'd read that you can gauge your treatment success to some degree (along with lack of symptoms) by comparing test results. But maybe that's just for lye. I didn't use the same test company, Igenex v. MDL, so I'm sure that doesn't help, but at the same time, that's why I am worried about the bart, because my lyme bands on both the IGM/IGG reduced significantly as obviously have my symptoms, but since the bart test result is clearly in the positive range, it seems that it could be the bart hanging on. In hindsight, it seems sort of obvious that I had bart given my heartrate, OI, POTS-like symptoms.
Posted Today 10:12 PM (GMT 0)
Dr. J hasn't retested my for lyme or co's since starting treatment in February. (or before starting treatment either)

If there was worthy information, I'd think he would.
Posted 12/3/2018 12:38 PM (GMT 0)
they all do it differently, it would seem some do repeat for coinfection tests if there isnt a distinct (positive) result or to attempt to measure progress. however with lyme tests not many seem to do repeat testing. atleast the three LLMDs I dealt with
Posted 12/3/2018 2:25 PM (GMT 0)
I was surprised because Dr H redid my lyme western blot after I'd been treating for a while. Many of the bands were no longer positive, and he told me this was a sign I'd made progress with lyme. I don't doubt I've made progress based on symptom improvement, but I had no idea he used that test to gauge improvement. I still had remaining symptoms though, which are babesia-related as it turns out.
Posted 12/3/2018 2:52 PM (GMT 0)

sebreg said...
I was surprised because Dr H redid my lyme western blot after I'd been treating for a while. Many of the bands were no longer positive, and he told me this was a sign I'd made progress with lyme. I don't doubt I've made progress based on symptom improvement, but I had no idea he used that test to gauge improvement. I still had remaining symptoms though, which are babesia-related as it turns out.

He also retested me with Igenex western blot. I dropped a few bands and those that I was positive on before were less positive (so +++ to ++ or +). But overall, it looked similar to my initial results, just weaker. I have the same bands on IGM and IGG (31, 41, 58).

I was also surprised that he thought there was value in this.

Post Edited (k07) : 12/3/2018 7:56:56 AM (GMT-7)

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