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After six weeks of doxycycline, improvements have plateaued. Should I just give it more time?

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Posted 1/8/2019 6:44 PM (GMT 0)
I started taking clindamycin some weeks back and it wrenched my gut. I was already on triple probiotics, but added plain chobani greek yogurt which may have helped. Maybe things would have stabilized anyways w/o the yogurt, but could be worth trying?

Good luck with the treatments!
Posted 1/8/2019 7:03 PM (GMT 0)
I take two in capsule form and one that is in yogurt form - called Bio-K that I get from our health food store.
I also get Kefir from our grocery store.
And I take Saccharoamyces boulliardii - which is technically a yeast - not a probiotic.
I know I spelled that wrong!
Posted 1/8/2019 7:30 PM (GMT 0)
OK, thanks both. Will keep this thread updated in due course.
Posted 1/9/2019 7:34 AM (GMT 0)
Actually, have thought of something else I could do with some help with. I am having a lot of sleep disruption at present. It's a form of maintenance insomnia - I have no issue falling asleep, but I wake up every night any time between 2am and 4am, and subsequently find it difficult to fall back to sleep. I feel very cognitively refreshed when I wake at that time, but if I do stay up I (unsurprisingly) end up feeling sleep deprived for the rest of the day.

My room is dark, cool, and noise-free. I don't believe I am suffering from anxiety or other psychological issues that might be contributing to this: I am able to fall to sleep with a clear mind. I maintain the same sleep schedule 7 days per week: approx 10:30pm-11:00pm to 7am. Pre-Lyme with this schedule I would usually wake up naturally around 6:30am feeling good to go. I was doing a lot of exercise pre-Lyme, which I have read helps contribute to sound sleep. Currently I am not able to do more than a bit of walking, which is far less exercise than previously.

I have found that if I take magnesium glycinate immediately before I go to bed, that can sometimes help; other times the same routine plays out.

Any thoughts? Are there herbs/supplements/other things I could look at to help address this?
Posted 1/9/2019 8:58 AM (GMT 0)

eat_more_veggies said...
Actually, have thought of something else I could do with some help with. I am having a lot of sleep disruption at present. It's a form of maintenance insomnia - I have no issue falling asleep, but I wake up every night any time between 2am and 4am, and subsequently find it difficult to fall back to sleep. I feel very cognitively refreshed when I wake at that time, but if I do stay up I (unsurprisingly) end up feeling sleep deprived for the rest of the day.

My room is dark, cool, and noise-free. I don't believe I am suffering from anxiety or other psychological issues that might be contributing to this: I am able to fall to sleep with a clear mind. I maintain the same sleep schedule 7 days per week: approx 10:30pm-11:00pm to 7am. Pre-Lyme with this schedule I would usually wake up naturally around 6:30am feeling good to go. I was doing a lot of exercise pre-Lyme, which I have read helps contribute to sound sleep. Currently I am not able to do more than a bit of walking, which is far less exercise than previously.

I have found that if I take magnesium glycinate immediately before I go to bed, that can sometimes help; other times the same routine plays out.

Any thoughts? Are there herbs/supplements/other things I could look at to help address this?

I had / have the exact same thing. It is worse for me during my on abx cycles. I do 10 days on 20 days off per month. 2 things have helped. And I have tried a lot of things...

1. Ketotifen. - A prescription anti histamine. Could be blocking histamine which supports the pineal gland from releasing melatonin.

2. CBD / THC. Not really sure why this works, but it lowers inflammation, reduces stress and it definitely helps you sleep through the night.
Posted 1/9/2019 9:42 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks Sheeks. What dosages do you take of these, and at what time of day? I'll run them past my LLMD as ideas (after seeing what he proposes).
Posted 1/9/2019 10:07 AM (GMT 0)
The CBD / THC. I have no idea... I used it in tincture form. I used the Ethos brand. I think it was majority CBD with a little thc in it.

The ketotifen I do 1mg at night. You can dose it up to 1mg 3x per day, but it makes me drowsy, so I only use it at night.

Oh and biopure liposomal melatonin helps. https://biopureus.com/product/liposomal-melatonin-phospholipid/

Use code: BETTERHEALTH for free shipping. I do 2 pumps under tongue before bed.
Posted 1/9/2019 11:37 AM (GMT 0)
Is it worse for you when you are taking antimicrobials? I had this very same insomnia as well, initially it was a baseline symptom for me but as I got better it became more manageable. The times it gets bad is when I was treating babesia (the more aggressive the treatment the worse the insomnia), I could be tired beyond belief and yet my body would wake up between 2-4am. Actually quite maddening. Things that helped me were antihistamines, cutting back on antimicrobials, and melatonin/full spectrum CBD. So similar to what Sheeks175 mentioned, I think this can be a symptom from the infections (babesia for me), which affects the autonomous nervous system.
Posted 1/9/2019 12:01 PM (GMT 0)

sebreg said...
Is it worse for you when you are taking antimicrobials? I had this very same insomnia as well, initially it was a baseline symptom for me but as I got better it became more manageable. The times it gets bad is when I was treating babesia (the more aggressive the treatment the worse the insomnia), I could be tired beyond belief and yet my body would wake up between 2-4am. Actually quite maddening. Things that helped me were antihistamines, cutting back on antimicrobials, and melatonin/full spectrum CBD. So similar to what Sheeks175 mentioned, I think this can be a symptom from the infections (babesia for me), which affects the autonomous nervous system.

I can't state whether it's the Babesia or antimicrobials which are interferring (or both?!), but it feels like something definitely is getting in the way. I feel way too alert - almost like I've had a coffee - when I wake at 2am-4am.

My LLMD has prescribed me 1 month of 2mg Melatonin to take every evening before bedtime. Will see how that works out.
Posted 1/9/2019 12:26 PM (GMT 0)
Yeah, the best description I've seen for it that matched my experience is "wired-tired." Exhausted as heck, but body is restless/agitated. It used to really burn me out because I needed all the sleep I could get but couldn't manage more than 4 hrs. I suspect any of the neurotoxin infections (including babesia, bart, lyme) can cause this symptom.

Has gotten a lot better with the babesia treatments over time. But when I herx hard (like with this coartem cycle I'm currently on) this insomnia flares back up, but nowhere near as bad as it used to be. The antihistamines help, I'm taking allegra and zyrtec. I hope the melatonin helps!

I've always liked this guy's overview of the infections: https://conniestrasheim.org/blog/2017/3/6/a-deep-look-at-the-symptoms-of-six-major-lyme-related-infections

"Borrelia symptom patterns are a bit harder to define because this organism isn’t as aggressive as the others. The distinguishing symptom that it causes is fatigue; people who have active Borrelia symptoms tend to have more fatigue than those whose predominant symptoms are due to Bartonella or Babesia. People with active Babesia and Bartonella are much more restless than those with active Borrelia infections. All of the infections cause exhaustion; that is ubiquitous within the entire family of neurotoxin infections, but Babesia and Bartonella cause more restlessness, whereas people who are primarily manifesting Borrelia symptoms are often more tired. Feeling “wired and tired” is common with all the neurotoxin diseases, so I am really just focusing on the shades of gray here."
Posted 1/9/2019 1:23 PM (GMT 0)

sebreg said...
Yeah, the best description I've seen for it that matched my experience is "wired-tired." Exhausted as heck, but body is restless/agitated. It used to really burn me out because I needed all the sleep I could get but couldn't manage more than 4 hrs.

You've perfectly described how I am feeling right now. It reminds me of my university days where I felt leaving things to the last minute - and pulling an all-nighter - was the optimal way to prepare for exams!

sebreg said...
Has gotten a lot better with the babesia treatments over time. But when I herx hard (like with this coartem cycle I'm currently on) this insomnia flares back up, but nowhere near as bad as it used to be. The antihistamines help, I'm taking allegra and zyrtec. I hope the melatonin helps!

Thanks, I will keep those antihistamines in mind should the melatonin not work out.

sebreg said...
I've always liked this guy's overview of the infections: https://conniestrasheim.org/blog/2017/3/6/a-deep-look-at-the-symptoms-of-six-major-lyme-related-infections

"Borrelia symptom patterns are a bit harder to define because this organism isn’t as aggressive as the others. The distinguishing symptom that it causes is fatigue; people who have active Borrelia symptoms tend to have more fatigue than those whose predominant symptoms are due to Bartonella or Babesia. People with active Babesia and Bartonella are much more restless than those with active Borrelia infections. All of the infections cause exhaustion; that is ubiquitous within the entire family of neurotoxin infections, but Babesia and Bartonella cause more restlessness, whereas people who are primarily manifesting Borrelia symptoms are often more tired. Feeling “wired and tired” is common with all the neurotoxin diseases, so I am really just focusing on the shades of gray here."

This was a fantastic read. Thanks. I've bookmarked it.
Posted 1/11/2019 1:22 PM (GMT 0)

eat_more_veggies said...
My LLMD has prescribed me 1 month of 2mg Melatonin to take every evening before bedtime. Will see how that works out.

First night on melatoinin - I still woke up (5am) but was able to get some form of sleep aftewards. Have just picked up some over-the-counter Cetirizine; will add that to my routine depending on how the next couple of nights of melatonin-only work out.
Posted 1/11/2019 1:36 PM (GMT 0)
Awesome, I'm so glad to hear you managed a bit more sleep with the melatonin. It's one of the more innocuous things you can take for sleep imo. I hope the antihistamine also further provides some relief. Sometimes need to try different ones, and different combos to see if something works. One of my buddies also told me Relora helps him with his sleep.

And I'm glad you found that link interesting! it really was like a light bulb for me when I read that, it finally allowed me to understand my symptoms, all mostly ANS-related, they would wax/wane in concert and always flare with babesia meds. Once I realized they were all ANS-related it made perfect sense, it was a relief to have a deeper understanding of what was going on (I've spent so much time/energy trying to figure things out that it feels like a miracle to finally get some basic understanding of something that has plagued me for years). For so long I was absolutely confused by the symptoms I'd get from babesia and babesia flares, they seemed so disparate.
Posted 1/17/2019 10:37 AM (GMT 0)
Sooo my sleep is still really poor. Same pattern: fall asleep with no issues, wake up at some point 2am-5am and fail to sleep any more after that. Feeling really alert when I wake, live I've just drank some coffee.

My current 'sleep stack' is:


  • 3mg Melatonin
  • 600mg Ashwagandha
  • 400mg Magnesium Glycinate
  • 240mg Valarian Root
  • 10mg Cetirizine


It worked for a few days, but the last three nights have been dreadful. I started out on 2mg melatonin, bumped to 3mg (per LLMD's recommendation) but it's made no difference. The only other recommendation from my LLMD is to add Lemon Balm. I'm happy to order some, but it's the first I've heard of it in this context, which reduces my confidence in it. I want to look at other angles too.

Now, at the same time I have introduced my Babesia protocol (via LLMD) - today is day six. That is:


  • Malarone (750mg 2x per day)
  • Clarithromycin (Biaxin - 500mg 2x per day)
  • Cat's Claw (20 drops, 3x per day)
  • Japanese Knotweed (20 drops, 3x per day)
  • Gou Teng (20 drops, 3x per day)
  • Banderol (20 drops, 3x per day)
  • Cryptolepis (20 drops, 3x per day)


And I have started experiencing the classic Babesiosis night sweats for the first time. And I have seen a classic 'cat scratch' Bartonella vertical streak on my abdomen for the first time. Remember that I am not treating 'chronic' Lyme (AFAIK!): I went untreated for approx 8 weeks and have been treating for 10 now. So I haven't the background/experience of tweaking approaches and seeing how it plays out over a few months.

There is a lot at play here, and my treatment plan has changed considerably in the last week. The night sweats, insomnia and rash could be a good thing in that it's a herx reaction to the treatment. Which would suggest looking at detox methods - but I feel I am doing so much detoxing already.

Or, the increase in symptoms could be a bad thing and it might be wise for me to adjust a few things. But it's a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack.

So I could either wait it out some more, to see if things improve on my new routine (the insomnia is the thing that's causing me most problems), or I could look to tackle the insomnia now by investigating further sleep aids. I have read a lot on this forum about L-theanine, GABA and 5-HTP, but part of me feels like this approach is continuing to simply throw mud at the wall hoping in vain that some of it sticks. Searching for a silver bullet. Literally all I want is a solid night's sleep.

Any thoughts?
Posted 1/17/2019 11:47 AM (GMT 0)
Forgot to add, as well as the tincture herbs, also taking sida, astragalus, EGCG, l-arginine and andrographis in powder form. All added in the last week.
Posted 1/17/2019 9:48 PM (GMT 0)
Doxycycline is a poor ABX for monotherapy.

Its actually been shown in NIH studies to increase the round body forms of Lyme making recovery tougher (1). Doxy does seem to work well for joints and since you are a runner that may be why they gave it to you.

However, since your symptoms are now clearly neuro related, I would recommend more aggressive treatment using multiple ABXs that target neuro. Once it gets a foothold into the brain, its very difficult to remove.

First ask your MDs to replace your Doxy with Minocycline, which is a far better ABX for passing the blood brain barrier (BBB). If neuro problems persist, I recommend introducing Tinidazole (Tindamax) which is synergistic with the Mino and great for the BBB.

Your doctor should already know all this. So be alert for an inexperienced practitioner and continue to be active and ask questions. There is no harm in switching to a different doctor if you feel it is their experience that has plateaued.

(1) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3132871/
Posted 1/18/2019 12:22 AM (GMT 0)
For acute infections Doxycycline (at appropriate dosage) is a good antibiotic .


For chronic lyme - no antibiotic is good for mono therapy. There should always be at least two (or more) abx taken together.
Posted 1/18/2019 1:23 AM (GMT 0)
Using Tinidazole as a monotherapy is somewhat new, but is based on Dr Sapi's groundbreaking research here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3132871

Figure 1C you can clearly see dramatically reductions in the spirochete and round body forms in vitro. Since Tinidazole is already known to be effective against biofilm, its part of several new mono protocols emerging. I only know about this because Im technically on one of these protocols myself. If you are in the MD/DC area, there is a legendary LLMD pioneering this treatment now.
Posted 1/18/2019 1:44 AM (GMT 0)

vcast said...
Using Tinidazole as a monotherapy is somewhat new, but is based on Dr Sapi's groundbreaking research here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3132871

Figure 1C you can clearly see dramatically reductions in the spirochete and round body forms in vitro. Since Tinidazole is already known to be effective against biofilm, its part of several new mono protocols emerging. I only know about this because Im technically on one of these protocols myself. If you are in the MD/DC area, there is a legendary LLMD pioneering this treatment now.


The article was published in 2011.
Since then, Dr. Sapi also did research on cbd oil - showing it was effective on spirochetes as well as biofilms/cysts in-vitro ...I don't recall if the results have been published...the work was done since 2011...but not sure of date.

I've not heard of any LLMD's doing mono therapy.....
Which LLMD in MD/DC is doing this now ? (initials only)

Will be interesting to hear about the results.
Posted 2/12/2019 6:01 PM (GMT 0)
Today I saw my LLMD again. Five weeks since my last consultation, where he put me on a pharmaceutical routine of Biaxin and Malarone, plus Buhner herbs. Our focus is mainly Babesia.

During these five weeks sleep has been poor, and I did have a week of bad gut. I have upped my probiotic game since then and - touch wood - things are better now.

Through trial and error I identified the full dose of Biaxin (1,000mg/day) as the cause of my sleep issues - it gives me crazy insomnia. Reducing to 500mg/day makes sleep kind of tolerable, but not ideal. This could be herxing, but my LLMD agreed that sleep is paramount, and that ideally the full dose of Biaxin should be taken. So we are replacing the Biaxin with Azithromycin. That covers my macrolide base.

We are also introducing Minocycline. The thinking here is that my symptoms - whilst looking suspiciously like Babesia - could be neurological borrelia. Minocycline is highly lipid-soluble: twice as much as doxyclycline, so should have a good shot at crossing the blood brain barrier.

So my pharmaceutical routine now looks like this:

  • Malarone 250mg 2x per day
  • Minocycline 100mg 2x per day
  • Azithromycin 250mg 2x per day


The Buhner herbs should continue.

He did talk about other options - Rifampicin, Tinizadole, Dapsone, Atovaquone - but wants me to put together a solid 2-3 month block of a routine before we start looking further afield. I think this makes sense: it's only 5 weeks since I was prescribed the Biaxin/Malarone combo, and with the sleep and gut issues during that period a lot of those weeks would not have been overly conducive to zapping the parasites. Ideally I can string together 8-12 weeks of good sleep and healthy gut. He thinks if I can do that, I'll be in a good place.

I have been taking Artesunate (a semisynthetic derivative of Artemisinin) since the very beginning (approx 3 months). He wants me to stop this, and after ~2 weeks start a pulsing protocol of Artemisinin - something like 3 days on, 11 days off.

I mentioned LDN to him: he is a fan and has prescribed me some. He said it should help reduce inflammation and may help with sleep. I am to increase the dosage very gradually over time.

I asked about other interfering issues - mycotoxins, mould, heavy metals, etc. - and he said they could well be at play, but he recommends I just focus on detoxing as best possible right now rather than spending money/time looking at those things for the time being. If I am still not good in a few months, we can investigate those area.
Posted 2/13/2019 6:32 AM (GMT 0)
We should be aware that during the treatment lyme symptoms are replaced with doxy side effects which are mostly same. Try track and differentiate them.
Posted 2/13/2019 6:42 AM (GMT 0)

tino2019 said...
We should be aware that during the treatment lyme symptoms are replaced with doxy side effects which are mostly same. Try track and differentiate them.

I'm not sure what you mean that lyme symptoms are replaced with doxy side effects.

If you have a side effect from doxy - then you would most likely have it from the start.....
(not after lyme symptoms are gone).
Posted 2/13/2019 10:11 AM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...
I'm not sure what you mean that lyme symptoms are replaced with doxy side effects.

If you have a side effect from doxy - then you would most likely have it from the start.....
(not after lyme symptoms are gone).

I think he was replying to my original post.

I've been updating this thread - rather than creating new ones - to keep a pseudo diary/journal of my progress in one place. And to reduce the amount of threads I'm creating. I guess the down side is people won't read the latest post(s) before replying.
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