Mycometrics sampling and buying a new home

Hey there. I have done five ERMI tests with Mycometrics and believe they are the best tool currently available for assessing a building for mold if you have CIRS or Lyme.

As far as “accurate”, no test of any kind for mold is accurate in some absolute way. It captures what you collect. As long as you follow the lab instructions, I would believe the data is reliable. I think reliable is a better term than accurate. At any rate, it’s the best we have at this point to my knowledge. I’m waiting for the day when they invent something affordable we can all have to instantly assess mold, mycotoxins, and VOC’s (including microbial) in any environment.

If spores are stirred up from vacuuming then they will settle wherever they land. I have always done the dust cloth not the vacuuming method.

As for Shoemaker, my Lyme doc doesn’t follow him but does use CSM. I don’t remember who she said she follows for mold. So yeah, there are other methods. I am aware of Shoemaker’s reputation for being difficult. I find his writings very frustrating. He writes in riddles and I think he does it on purpose.

I do listen to what he says and find value in the labs he uses, but the more I learn the more I question his methods and data. My own labs have not fit his data model perfctly, so he definitely doesn’t know or account for everything.

While he does include Lyme as a CIRS trigger, he says little about coinfections and what he does say leaves me wondering what he is really measuring. In comments I have read on his site, he acknowledges the woeful inaccuracies of testing for Lyme and coinfections while at the same time seems to dismiss any clinical diagnoses of such.

For the sake of data collection, I find any data and studies on Lyme or Lyme patients to be faulty because how can anyone tell if what they are measuring is the effect of borrelia or some other coinfection or a combination. Most of us believe very few people have Lyme in isolation with no other infection.

Each of the infections activate specific cytokine pathways and they are not all the same. Buhner does a superb job of laying these out based on what research existed at the time of publication.

One burning question I have is do mold and bartonella activate the same pathways. I have wondered how many people diagnosed with CIRS from mold really have undiagnosed Lyme or bartonella or some other chronic infection. On the flip side, could people who think they have bartonella really have CIRS from mold instead, especially in absence of a positive bart test.

I cannot deny mold illness. I certainly have it and can instantly feel the presence of mold when I’m around it. I just wish I understood more about it.

I wouldn’t call Shoemaker’s methods outdated, though, as I am unaware of a newer, more accurate or effective method supplanting it. I would call his method limited and intolerable to sensitive patients, leaving them wondering how to deal.

Post Edited (WalkingbyFaith) : 3/14/2019 9:56:39 AM (GMT-6)

Thank you for such a complete and smart response!

about Shoemaker, one Lyme and CIRS doctor I consulted with who used to work with him wasn’t too shy about his feelings on Shoemaker. He was very upset that Shoemaker tried to destroy the career of a well known Lyme doctor and stated that Shoemaker knows nothing about Lyme disease and that he hasn’t even studied new techniques or Lyme itself in over a decade. Quite similar to the IDSA.

Thank you again! I appreciate your thoughts. 🙂

WalkingbyFaith said...
Hey there. I have done five ERMI tests with Mycometrics and believe they are the best tool currently available for assessing a building for mold if you have CIRS or Lyme.

As far as “accurate”, no test of any kind for mold is accurate in some absolute way. It captures what you collect. As long as you follow the lab instructions, I would believe the data is reliable. I think reliable is a better term than accurate. At any rate, it’s the best we have at this point to my knowledge. I’m waiting for the day when they invent something affordable we can all have to instantly assess mold, mycotoxins, and VOC’s (including microbial) in any environment.

If spores are stirred up from vacuuming then they will settle wherever they land. I have always done the dust cloth not the vacuuming method.

As for Shoemaker, my Lyme doc doesn’t follow him but does use CSM. I don’t remember who she said she follows for mold. So yeah, there are other methods. I am aware of Shoemaker’s reputation for being difficult. I find his writings very frustrating. He writes in riddles and I think he does it on purpose.

I do listen to what he says and find value in the labs he uses, but the more I learn the more I question his methods and data. My own labs have not fit his data model perfctly, so he definitely doesn’t know or account for everything.

While he does include Lyme as a CIRS trigger, he says little about coinfections and what he does say leaves me wondering what he is really measuring. In comments I have read on his site, he acknowledges the woeful inaccuracies of testing for Lyme and coinfections while at the same time seems to dismiss any clinical diagnoses of such.

For the sake of data collection, I find any data and studies on Lyme or Lyme patients to be faulty because how can anyone tell if what they are measuring is the effect of borrelia or some other coinfection or a combination. Most of us believe very few people have Lyme in isolation with no other infection.

Each of the infections activate specific cytokine pathways and they are not all the same. Buhner does a superb job of laying these out based on what research existed at the time of publication.

One burning question I have is do mold and bartonella activate the same pathways. I have wondered how many people diagnosed with CIRS from mold really have undiagnosed Lyme or bartonella or some other chronic infection. On the flip side, could people who think they have bartonella really have CIRS from mold instead, especially in absence of a positive bart test.

I cannot deny mold illness. I certainly have it and can instantly feel the presence of mold when I’m around it. I just wish I understood more about it.

I wouldn’t call Shoemaker’s methods outdated, though, as I am unaware of a newer, more accurate or effective method supplanting it. I would call his method limited and intolerable to sensitive patients, leaving them wondering how to deal.

I went to the biotoxin journey site to see if Greg recommended a particular moisture meter. Didn’t find that but found this incredibly insightful article he wrote explaining moisture problems in building construction. This article talks mainly about concrete.

http://biotoxinjourney.com/find-prevent-mold-basements-crawl-spaces-concrete-floors/

I’m also house hunting and feeling hopeless about it.

Post Edited (WalkingbyFaith) : 3/14/2019 12:11:54 PM (GMT-6)

Guys, it could be worse than house hunting: we bought a house in July 2018 with mold/damp problems (got a "good deal"...), I then got infected with Lyme and Babesia in September 2018 and am now seemingly dealing with mold mycotoxin issues. 😂

On the positive side, I am finding my symptoms improve when I spend a few hours away from home, so hopefully once we've safely cleared it all up I will start to see improvements. 🤞

18yearsandcounting said...
Oh please don’t feel hopeless. As I assume your username suggests, you are a Christian (if I’m wrong, I apologize). Christ is with us and will lead us in the right direction. It may take time, but He never lets his people down, does he?

I put an offer on a house and the HERTSMI score came back at 26! Too much toxic mold there. It just wasn’t meant to be. I pray you find a livable home very soon. 🙂✝️

Thank you for adding the article. I’m so grateful to have such insight in this journey.

Yes, I am. Thank you so much for the encouragement

18yearsandcounting said...
Oh my! I’m so sorry! Are you using contractors to find the source of the mold? That’s a HUGE undertaking. Something I didn’t care to do at my old house. I’m in a brand new apartment building now with an ERMI score of -2.0, so I’m Golden there, but too far from my doctor and regular treatments that could seriously help me. Please remember not to treat your mold infection until everything comes back clean. It’ll only make you worse if you do. Best of luck to you!

Well, firstly my wife and I will safely tackle the easiest/most obvious sources in a prioritised order in terms of how relevant we think the source is. That will take us several weekends, so I'll be able to monitor my symptoms progress as we continue to remove sources of mold. I am able to get respite from it by simply not being at home - e.g. going to work, visiting family nearby in much newer homes, etc. - so I am taking that as a positive sign in terms of if we find and safely remove the relevant mold sources I will hopefully make a reasonably quick recovery. I'm strong enough to visit the office 4-5 days per week and on those days I'm essentially symptom-free.

We have a damp report from when we were buying the house so we know which area(s) need fixing in that regard.

If I/we need to temporarily move out whilst the work is undertaken we do have family nearby that we can stay with (and I've no previous symptoms when visiting them).

I am seeing my LLMD next week so will get his view on things also.

18yearsandcounting said...
Well I wish the best for you and your family. I will be honest though, this is not something I would tackle without professional help. If it’s a matter of finances, even then I’m not sure what to say as I don’t want to offend anyone’s plans or treatment process for that matter. Lyme and CIRS together is horribly difficult to heal from. Add on the coinfectioncs and viruses, and there’s your scenario for a nightmare. I am very glad you remain optimistic. It truly is helpful to keep grounded while being ill.

I really value your opinion (and everyone else's on here), so thank you for providing so much great input.

I'm fortunate in that I am very new to this illness, and my baseline is strong: I've responded very positively to treatment in a short period of time and we're fairly confident I started treatment during the acute phase. I am capable of working full time 40 hours per week with an hour commute each way, evening socials, etc., without any setbacks or relapses. I would describe myself as feeling 100% when away from home.

Similarly, when I am at home (and affected by mycotoxins), things aren't that bad. I get a little dizzy, but that's it. It's not overly debilitating.

So my train of thought is that my situation is probably a little different to a lot of Healingwell regulars who have been treating chronic Lyme (and associated infections and issues) for so many years. If I was in that camp I would absolutely be looking at professional help for this task from the beginning. Or maybe even looking at moving house again. But because I'm in a relatively decent spot right now with my recovery we think the obvious first step is to look at safely removing the 'low hanging fruit' mold cases at home ourselves and seeing how I respond. It might be that is all we need to get me on the road to full remission. Or it might be that it's more complex than that and we do need to widen the net and seek professional help and other viewpoints.

I have spoken to other Healingwell folk who have had success simply by taking the first step outlined above, which has also influenced our planning.

As always with these MSIDS situations, it's a case of soliciting a lot of informed/professional opinions and weighing up the options/approaches accordingly.

I will document things on this forum so that hopefully my experience - however it pans out - will be a useful resource for others in future.

Interesting thing, my home sales agent and i used the pinless meter (we can’t poke holes into someone else’s home) and that home came back with readings of less than 5% or nothing, everywhere we checked, and boy did we check!

The HERTSMI score of that home? 26!! I’m having a hard time believing the accuracy of these methods. I believe Mycometrics is more helpful, but using two methods and getting complete opposite results, not to mention air quality tests if you decide to pay an inspector to do what is basically worthless. I’m ready to pull my hair out! I’m still questioning accuracy!

One house came back at 16 (one point over borderline) and it’s less than 3 years old. I’m betting that pulling the carpet out (why are people still putting in carpet With all of the crap that is trapped in it!? It’s gross!) laying down uniform hardwood flooring with a waterproof underlay (there’s hardwood in the rest of the house, so I’m matching it) having a mold restoration cleaning plus vent cleaning, and I’ve done the best I can do.

This has been insane! I’m so exhausted with this whole process, not to mention another medical issues popped up on diagnostics. The area I’m searching comes up yearly as THE most desirable area to live in the US. Hard to find a home with that and my price point and be mold free. Why cant my doctor live in a medium nice area? Rant over. Thanks for reading everyone!

I understand. I had to do the best I could without damaging someone else’s home.

Lapis_29 said...

18yearsandcounting said...
Interesting thing, my home sales agent and i used the pinless meter (we can’t poke holes into someone else’s home) and that home came back with readings of less than 5% or nothing, everywhere we checked, and boy did we check!

The HERTSMI score of that home? 26!! I’m having a hard time believing the accuracy of these methods. I believe Mycometrics is more helpful, but using two methods and getting complete opposite results, not to mention air quality tests if you decide to pay an inspector to do what is basically worthless. I’m ready to pull my hair out! I’m still questioning accuracy!

One house came back at 16 (one point over borderline) and it’s less than 3 years old. I’m betting that pulling the carpet out (why are people still putting in carpet With all of the crap that is trapped in it!? It’s gross!) laying down uniform hardwood flooring with a waterproof underlay (there’s hardwood in the rest of the house, so I’m matching it) having a mold restoration cleaning plus vent cleaning, and I’ve done the best I can do.

This has been insane! I’m so exhausted with this whole process, not to mention another medical issues popped up on diagnostics. The area I’m searching comes up yearly as THE most desirable area to live in the US. Hard to find a home with that and my price point and be mold free. Why cant my doctor live in a medium nice area? Rant over. Thanks for reading everyone!

pinless in not very thorough. It only detects moisture very near the surface. If the moisture is deep in, where dampness and mold love to hide, it won't detect it.