Buhner on Stevia

GH that's certainly an interesting perspective. That would certainly be part of it, but a herxheimer in theory at least should encompass all aspects of immunity that the endotoxin (or endotoxins) would engender including adaptive immunity. Hence why things like autoimmune arthritis and CIDP can worsen as well. Though oxidative stress clearly goes hand in hand

Mustard seed - i agree. in buhners defense though i think people expect too much out of him so he just makes up answers as a best guess. as for herxing, whether immunological mechanisms or direct lysis by the antimicrobial is involved the end result is similar. dead spirochetes. the sorts of autoantibodies produced that contribute to symptoms are also bacteriocidal. The issue is simply that an equilibrium has been established between the death of spirochetes through antibody secretion and their persistence through immunosuppression. so a raise in immune function would essentially accomplish the same thing as a herx. either the direct secretion of more antibody and immune effectors, better recognition of the bacteria and secretion of antibody and immune effectors, or the lysis of bacteria followed by enhanced recognition and secretion of antibody and effectors. I think why people don't stop herxing often has to do with how much they're taking. I've found that at some of the recommended doses herxing can become catalytic whereas if i stay just above the threshold it goes away in about 3 days. Think of it this way... you kill the bacteria at a high dose. This relieves immune suppression and leads to release of antigens, which leads to recognition and secretion of antibody. This is your herx (the things GH stated also apply of course). But the release of effector molecules leads to more dead borrelia which leads to more antigen which leads to more detection which leads to more secretion of antibody ad nauseum. Herxes might become cyclical if the dose is sufficient that the herx itself kills more bacteria and stimulates more herxing. Just a thought on why low doses might be better in theory. It's certainly made a world of difference to me.

I really do believe i am. Sometimes it's hard to tell because i'll increase the dose when the symptoms subside and it starts all over again. But i've been able to steadily climb from a microdose to a full dose over a few months without any dramatic events which is unprecedented for me. When i don't change the dose for a while i start to feel a lot more energy, my leg pain is almost nonexistent at points, and my heart has stopped skipping beats which is nice. Still a long way from the finish line but i'd definitely rather do it like this than the endless herx cycles i used to have.

I can't really say when it comes to antibiotics. In fact, i'd be concerned that my approach might be more risky with antibiotics since it might contribute to resistance. I made the assumption with herbs that resistance would be less likely with the presence of virulence inhibitors and just crossing my fingers that i'm right. But for japanese knotweed for example.. the full dose is 1tsp-3tsp. So i started at like 1/8tsp. And increased another 1/8tsp. After i cleared out the first wave of bugs i could tolerate larger increases (1/4tsp at a time). And now i can tolerate almost a 1/2tsp increase. Right now i'm at 3/2 tsp which is a full dose. But my strategy was really just to lower it so much that i would just barely herx. Like a deep muscle ache here and there. Last time i increased to 3/2 tsp over the course of a month. I thought i was doing great and then i got slapped with all sorts of nausea, fatigue spells, pain, etc. This way i just ensured that i was "silently" killing off the bulk of my infection so my body could clean up before the next onslaught. In fact the first dose of 1/8 and the increase of 1/8th after produced much worse herxes than the 1/4-1/2tsp increase i now do.

Girlie said...
I don't know if resistance happens - for a couple of reasons:

- these bacteria have longer replication cycles - days/weeks compared to hours.

- and we always pair the antibiotic with at least one other.


There is a lot of pulsing going on now with LLMD's - and Dr. J. (for instance) has been doing the pulsed protocol for many years now...I would hope he'd change it up...if it wasn't getting good results. (if resistance was happening)

Yeah not so much for Lyme, but other bacteria in your body. I'm not saying it's a bad idea necessarily.

Mhmm i swear the first few herxes could have been deadly. I literally felt like someone sucked the life force out of me. It's not something i wish to ever go through again. I can take a little muscle pain here and there. At my doses i don't even get the nerve herxes, just the improvements.

Psilociraptor said...
GH that's certainly an interesting perspective. That would certainly be part of it, but a herxheimer in theory at least should encompass all aspects of immunity that the endotoxin (or endotoxins) would engender including adaptive immunity. Hence why things like autoimmune arthritis and CIDP can worsen as well. Though oxidative stress clearly goes hand in hand

Mustard seed - i agree. in buhners defense though i think people expect too much out of him so he just makes up answers as a best guess. as for herxing, whether immunological mechanisms or direct lysis by the antimicrobial is involved the end result is similar. dead spirochetes. the sorts of autoantibodies produced that contribute to symptoms are also bacteriocidal. The issue is simply that an equilibrium has been established between the death of spirochetes through antibody secretion and their persistence through immunosuppression. so a raise in immune function would essentially accomplish the same thing as a herx. either the direct secretion of more antibody and immune effectors, better recognition of the bacteria and secretion of antibody and immune effectors, or the lysis of bacteria followed by enhanced recognition and secretion of antibody and effectors. I think why people don't stop herxing often has to do with how much they're taking. I've found that at some of the recommended doses herxing can become catalytic whereas if i stay just above the threshold it goes away in about 3 days. Think of it this way... you kill the bacteria at a high dose. This relieves immune suppression and leads to release of antigens, which leads to recognition and secretion of antibody. This is your herx (the things GH stated also apply of course). But the release of effector molecules leads to more dead borrelia which leads to more antigen which leads to more detection which leads to more secretion of antibody ad nauseum. Herxes might become cyclical if the dose is sufficient that the herx itself kills more bacteria and stimulates more herxing. Just a thought on why low doses might be better in theory. It's certainly made a world of difference to me.

Studies have shown that endotoxins are not responsible for all herxes. They are present in most herxes, but it is believed that tumor necrosis factor is responsible for herxes. I described the process of how herxes happen but I just didn't name endotoxins, tnf, or IL-1B. What comes first, the chicken or the egg? I say the cytokines cause the problems and the endotoxins make it worse. I say this because studies have been able to prevent herxes by giving anti-tnf and blocking cytokines like IL-1B. There have also been experiments where herxes occurred and no endotoxin was present. My feelings are that herxes are bad for us and the oxidative stress they cause is harmful long term. I think more herxes come from cell wall deficient bacteria than anything else. They live in the extracellular matrix, in leukocytes, and in other phagocytic cells. The sicker you are, the more bacteria you have to deal with, both in numbers and variety.

Borrelia is pretty easy clear from the blood stream. A low grade temperature for a few days will do it. They are just so adaptable that they'll be back because reducing them in the blood and eliminating them are two entirely different things. So to have a herx, we must hit many more pathogens than normal to overload our pathways. I can herx from crying, flying, running, abstaining from fats, or if I wanted to literally kill myself, take 20 drops of cryptolepis. This tells me that I am opening up a compartment where these pathogens live and by gaining access to them, I can kill them.

Sorry im a no pain no gain kinda cat ...plus i aint trying to be symptomatic five years from now wishing i had treated harder ...they were stealing my quality of life exponentially fast .so abx or herbs or bvt i go pedal to metal and detox the aftermath ....today i tore off a roof ,tended bees ,saw 2 clients and went on a motorcycle ride(will make a seperate post ,not braggin but proud) last year i couldnt walk costco. So i always did go for extra credit with herbs but skipped some abx .

Georgia Hunter said...

Psilociraptor said...
GH that's certainly an interesting perspective. That would certainly be part of it, but a herxheimer in theory at least should encompass all aspects of immunity that the endotoxin (or endotoxins) would engender including adaptive immunity. Hence why things like autoimmune arthritis and CIDP can worsen as well. Though oxidative stress clearly goes hand in hand

Mustard seed - i agree. in buhners defense though i think people expect too much out of him so he just makes up answers as a best guess. as for herxing, whether immunological mechanisms or direct lysis by the antimicrobial is involved the end result is similar. dead spirochetes. the sorts of autoantibodies produced that contribute to symptoms are also bacteriocidal. The issue is simply that an equilibrium has been established between the death of spirochetes through antibody secretion and their persistence through immunosuppression. so a raise in immune function would essentially accomplish the same thing as a herx. either the direct secretion of more antibody and immune effectors, better recognition of the bacteria and secretion of antibody and immune effectors, or the lysis of bacteria followed by enhanced recognition and secretion of antibody and effectors. I think why people don't stop herxing often has to do with how much they're taking. I've found that at some of the recommended doses herxing can become catalytic whereas if i stay just above the threshold it goes away in about 3 days. Think of it this way... you kill the bacteria at a high dose. This relieves immune suppression and leads to release of antigens, which leads to recognition and secretion of antibody. This is your herx (the things GH stated also apply of course). But the release of effector molecules leads to more dead borrelia which leads to more antigen which leads to more detection which leads to more secretion of antibody ad nauseum. Herxes might become cyclical if the dose is sufficient that the herx itself kills more bacteria and stimulates more herxing. Just a thought on why low doses might be better in theory. It's certainly made a world of difference to me.

Studies have shown that endotoxins are not responsible for all herxes. They are present in most herxes, but it is believed that tumor necrosis factor is responsible for herxes. I described the process of how herxes happen but I just didn't name endotoxins, tnf, or IL-1B. What comes first, the chicken or the egg? I say the cytokines cause the problems and the endotoxins make it worse. I say this because studies have been able to prevent herxes by giving anti-tnf and blocking cytokines like IL-1B. There have also been experiments where herxes occurred and no endotoxin was present. My feelings are that herxes are bad for us and the oxidative stress they cause is harmful long term. I think more herxes come from cell wall deficient bacteria than anything else. They live in the extracellular matrix, in leukocytes, and in other phagocytic cells. The sicker you are, the more bacteria you have to deal with, both in numbers and variety.

Borrelia is pretty easy clear from the blood stream. A low grade temperature for a few days will do it. They are just so adaptable that they'll be back because reducing them in the blood and eliminating them are two entirely different things. So to have a herx, we must hit many more pathogens than normal to overload our pathways. I can herx from crying, flying, running, abstaining from fats, or if I wanted to literally kill myself, take 20 drops of cryptolepis. This tells me that I am opening up a compartment where these pathogens live and by gaining access to them, I can kill them.

Cytokines come downstream of endotoxins. If a study says no endotoxins are present they are probably strictly referring to LPS and not the greater range of PAMPs that are necessary to stimulate inflammation. Spirochetes are generally void of true endotoxin so this wouldn't be a shock. I've never been a fan of limiting the term "endotoxin" to one particular immunogen but it is what it is. It isn't so much chicken or egg but quite linear as far as things can be in biology. PAMP->PRR activation->cytokine release->innate immunity->adaptive immunity. Endotoxins and PAMPs are toxic quite literally for their effects on causing inflammation. The two are not separate issues. My only point was to say that in addition to all that ROS you have to include everything downstream as well which includes autoantibodies. I have autoimmune neuropathy which gets profoundly worse with treatment. Sure that's anecdotal but it's consistent. The reason biologics work is because they block everything downstream of cytokine activation. That doesn't mean cytokines are the source of the chain of events. They have to be activated by something and there are numerous "pathogen-associated molecular patterns" analogous to endotoxins to do it.

Post Edited (Psilociraptor) : 7/2/2017 11:15:35 AM (GMT-6)

bluelyme said...
I understand buhners reasoning of stopping the cytokines storm.but my logic is saying the pathogens themselves are causing the inflammation and endo toxins and bodies reacions are all secondary .i know bartonellas lsp is extremely toxic .try a alinia anxiety herx its straightjackety fun .....chop the roots the tree will fall and i have a small small ax .

psilo- does your wonderfully logic and brilliant mind think tiny doses of just jk is going to stop your autoimmune neuropathy or eliminate pathogens ?

I don't disagree with you. But understand that Buhners coming from a perspective of "use what works" first, and then "justify it with science" second. There's not enough science on herbs that are directly antimicrobial for borrelia, so Buhner included all the other aspects to help rationalize it. But in reality he's putting more weight on traditional usage and personal experience with his patients. Even though he has pages and pages written about cytokines, he does explicitly mention this a few times. It is a small part of his selection process.

But knotweed IS antibacterial and i do herx very strongly on it. It's antibacterial properties are well established. Buhners logic regarding cytokine storms and your logic of chopping the roots are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Herbs are truly holistic in the sense that they interfere with many strategies of the pathogens survival and part of that includes the direct synthesis of antibacterial compounds. That doesn't mean they can all be used interchangeably but you get what i'm saying. There's more coverage in general terms. I don't think tiny doses of knotweed are going to kill my Lyme. I'm took tiny doses of knotweed because I COULD'T take higher doses. Herxing is a good sign but it's not productive to healing. Wanting to power through the pain is one thing. Being afraid you're actually killing yourself and causing serious organ damage is another. I was dealing with the latter. I'm now on a full dose of knotweed, working my way up on cats claw. After that I will start incorporating stronger antibacterials that i have personal experience with and know are effective like Sida acuta. And if needed houttuynia and others that are progressively stronger and broader spectrum. Climbing up slow on knotweed and cats claw was to clear the overgrowth and give myself a good baseline. Not the be all end all. I agree that focus on direct killing is important. Knotweed is part of that, but no herb alone is going to be the be all end all

Post Edited (Psilociraptor) : 7/2/2017 2:54:33 PM (GMT-6)

glad you all are listening to your bodies ..one thing i agree with buhner on is synergy some times 1 and 1 and 1 =111 .give the iha formula a try from woodland psilo ...i am rooting for you guys

1. After Stevia tea I noticed spasm in my brain it means Stevia can reach neurones
2. If stevia cant help why it has many neurological side effects...
3. if stevia is not a cure for LD what herbs are??

Psilociraptor said...
I've never heard of IHA though, what is that? Isatis houttuynia alchornea?

Yes

Glad this old post got bumped. This is from 2 months before I joined this forum. I don’t recall seeing this before. Some of our most brilliant minds posted some deeply scientific details here. Encourage you to read through this entire post to glean from it.

GH, Psilo, and Blue,
If you see this, I have questions for you.

Psilo,
You talked about staying below the herxing threshold by going low and slow. It’s almost 2 years later. Did you continue this route? Did you recover or mostly recover?

Blue,
You said something about IV glutathione helping wrinkled fingers and vasodilation. That caught my attention. I have wrinkled fingers but have been afraid of IV glut thinking it would cause too much of a herx for me.

GH,
In turn, you connected animal protein to water issues. Would animal protein cause low ADH/osmolality?

Stevia helps body and eliminates sugar in the blood - fuel for bacteria! It is important part of the treatment!

Check this https://stopthelymelies.com/why-sugar-consumption-is-a-big-no-no-in-lyme-disease/
If in vitro stevia kills 95% of Borrelia bacteria,( probably not so effective) it is impossible that in vivo stevia is harmless for borellia.

There is another question. After stevia and NETTLE my tinnitus intensify. I believe its herx.

What do you think about DANDELION and WILD TEASEL?

Post Edited (tino2019) : 4/23/2019 11:43:20 PM (GMT-6)