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MCAS and its possible relationship to "big herxers" (my theory)

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Posted 8/28/2019 3:17 AM (GMT 0)
Girlie brings up interesting question: "So if it’s mca and not dieoff - then when we stop treating - we should feel good? ie if it’s not a herx ??
Or am I way off base... lol"

Long answer short: it is both, toxins are the fuel. MCAS is the connector. Symptoms are the result. (so imo minimizing pathogen/toxin load is very important! but the goal is to short circuit the immune response that makes treating intolerable for those of us that have all these consistently similar issues tolerating therapies, otherwise it's hard to reduce pathogen load!). My idea is really trying to frame specific type of patient, the ones with massive, amplified, problematic flare dynamics. It might not apply to a wide range of other patients. But for the ones on my end of the bell curve (sensitive, big herxer, etc), some type of dynamic along the lines of what I'm talking about may be taking place. Truth be told, my intuition is some level of MCAS dynamic is affecting a wider range of patients, but it's just more problematic for those of us at the severe end of the bell curve because it makes treating the actual infections very difficult.

I suspect that pathogen load in body is consistently creating toxins, thusly consistently contributing to a constant lower-level MCAS dynamic that helps manifest baseline symptoms. Basically, you could almost say we are allergic to the toxins, and so when you treat the infection and create die-off it's like shaking a coke bottle, and the immune system is seeing much more of the specific pathogen toxin/debris that drives it crazy in the first place, so the immune system thusly launches an even greater amount of cascading than it does at baseline. So my theory? MCAS dynamic is also operating at baseline (responding to the fuel for this dynamic/ie toxins, the immune system cascades in response to toxin triggers), but immune system goes into even greater overdrive when higher levels of die-off are created (adding to total toxin burden in that moment, increasing MCAS capacity, which creates an even larger immune system cascade corresponding to further increase in symptoms). When you effectively lower the pathogen load, while temporarily you increase MCAS dynamic with die-off, once you settle to baseline your MCAS dynamic manifests a bit less because the fuel for the fire, the total pathogen load (the trigger) is lower. (at least that's what should happen in theory, in my own case these dynamics generally hold true, but I know for other patients' symptoms can be highly variable even after effective therapies. So this theory I put forth does not explain everything or everyone!)

Is all this correct? I don't know. It's conjecture. There's a lot of variables. Hundreds of different markers are involved. A complex ballet I imagine, with different dances and flavors based on circumstances and the various inputs you are trying, along with fixed factors in body, other environmental circumstances, etc

Walkingbyfaith: Sorry I've been a bit scatter-brained. I just saw your question about what I'm taking. With the disulfiram I've been getting massive flares, after talking to doc he decided to put me on zyrtec, zantac, singulair, ketotifen. With the option of adding in cromolyn. It's a lot of stuff. I forgo cromonlyn as the other stuff seems to be helping a lot with the flares. In fact I'm trying to see if half-dose ketotifen is good enough dose, the ketotifen is really most helpful of the lot but also gives me woozy side effect! I will likely improvise and taper some of those antihistamines back in weeks to come as flare downcycles in severity as days go by.

And when I talk about toxins, I really do think many other toxins like mold be also be causative toxin triggers for MCAS. I talk a lot about the infections because that has been my primary driver. But I would think similar MCAS dynamics are taking place when it comes to mold, immune system, symptoms.

PS. I'm sorry for a lot of the rambling, hope it is not too incoherent or circular in nature. A lot of this is thinking out loud, which is why it's nice to share with you guys to see what you think.

Post Edited (sebreg) : 8/27/2019 9:57:55 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 8/28/2019 7:48 AM (GMT 0)
I guess I see things a little differently. I won't say you are incorrect but I just have a different perspective. I was talking to my wife the other night about a problem a physician asked me about and she said I was just "weird" at how I looked at things. I wish that was a complement but I'm not sure it was.

I see our bodily functions from a chemistry point of view. I see pH, ions, charged particles, and chemical reactions. There is no way to encompass all of the reactions so I use the important one's that I know and attempt to project them forward. MCAS is the beginning of a process that leads to the problem, but it is not the problem. How we deal with MCAS is the problem. Think of our body as a bunch of pluses and minuses, a bunch of ions. It is our immune system's responsibility to take these ions and negate their charge. If we do this, we don't have issues. If we can't negate these charges, we run into problems. The problems vary depending on what is involved, but they could be anything like hypoxia, hyperglycemia, nutrient deficiency, and dehydration. When I use these terms, don't think about the body having hypoxia, hyperglycemia, nutrient deficiency, or dehydration, think of a cell having these problems. They alter cellular function and in some cases causes cellular death. Toxins have charges as well so they have to be negated or they can cause an issue. So there are direct and indirect causes for our immune system to not be able to function properly. The body does a tremendous about of manipulation to try to decrease those charges no matter what the cause. A herx is an inability to negate charges which results in one of the above mentioned factors, and IMO, it is mostly from cellular dehydration.

An interesting occurrence that happened to me a few weeks back. A beaver was chewing on some of the cypress trees in our pond so I went out to put some metal wire around the trees. The water was hot and stagnant and that is a bad recipe for bacteria. It should be avoided but I went in anyway with waders on. At some point, I scraped my hand and drew blood. That night, I had a herx like I hadn't had since my cryptolepis days. It was bad. I went to bed at 8pm and got up at 1pm still having major issues. I took everything I had to try to knock it back but nothing worked. I felt better the next day. The next week, I was at a meet and greet for something and did a lot of hand shaking. I hate doing that but it was unavoidable. That night, that same herxy feeling started coming on and I knew what was coming. But instead of going down without a fight, I went to the convenience store and got some fried gizzards and potato logs. There was no telling what the sodium content was in that food but I basically salt loaded before I felt awful. Low and behold, my herx never fully developed. The next day, I felt like I would have felt following a herx. I was OK but I wasn't 100%. I felt like my issue was from using up all my sodium altering the water around my cells. I see it as sodium hydrating the outside of cells with water and potassium hydrating the inside of cells with water. Fixing this is the first step to correcting my herx but there are so many issues that cause herxes. This is just my issue.
Posted 8/28/2019 12:45 PM (GMT 0)
Sebreg- I certainly agree that could be the case where without treatment you have this lower level mast-cell response to the underlying infections but during treatment it gets amplified but what drives this mcas? Is it a gene mutation thing? I haven't tested any of mine except for MTHFR and I have both copies of the c677t mutation which supposedly makes it harder to detox out the toxins from die-off. Have you tested yours?
Posted 8/28/2019 2:02 PM (GMT 0)
Georgia Hunter: Yeah, the base argument I guess that interests me with MCAS hypothesis is that it suggests the immune system genetics is the driving factor in determining cellular response to pathogen toxin/debris. And that such a phenomenon is bell curve due to variance in different immune system subset classes, inputs, etc. But exactly how important it is for everyone I could never guess. I always liked the theory in regards to understanding my own case, because it seemed to intuitively make sense, especially over time as I picked up patterns, noticed responses to meds, anthistamines, etc... I don't know if I'm right, maybe ballparkish on certain things.

And that's very interesting about the sodium with that incident! no doubt there is some type of nutrient-depletion going on with this stuff in some regards. I think I told you I was exploring fasting a bit. I wouldn't have felt comfortable doing that years back when body felt so depleted and I was always hungry, probably would've proved detrimental.

ToddPaul: Someone here mentioned the stat of 1/6 people having MCAS. I'd believe it if that is indeed the case. And it correlates in terms of the percent that get lyme and are heavily affected. If my theory holds that most severe sufferers have an MCAS component... in the end, I don't even think it's necessarily some rare crazy mutation, these are likely going to be relatively common immune system subtypes, with variance within each class helping determine who runs along where on the MCAS response bell curve. I mean, a specific thing that would need to be answered, is MCAS more common/severe with certain specific subtypes (like HLA-DR4 and HLA-DR2?).

And those with susceptible immune systems, I don't think it means your immune system is "bad." Your immune system likely has other advantages and strengths compared to others in certain respects, while having some susceptibilities... the unfortunate scenario is when those of us with particular susceptibility for MCAS have a "marriage" to the exact right class of toxin that we are most susceptible to (lyme, babesia, bartonella, mold, etc etc combinations thereof).

I haven't gotten mine tested actually. It was really working at things backwards that has convinced me on the MCAS front (so I can't say with certainty). I feel I experience MCAS as a consistent phenomenon with these infections, my severe flares, flares respond to antihistamines, etc. I do know I'm HLA-DR4 which is a common subtype that has issues with these infections (and maybe with MCAS?). I would've loved to see MCAS specialists, but that this point, I feel my doc has a good handle on the MCAS in a practical symptom management sense (and he does think I have it) and I'm still making great progress with treatment (and tolerating treatment). I do have the detox mutations, so that is a problem (backend problem), but I suspect the MCAS is what is driving problems on the front-end (triggering fast and severe flares via immune system genetics). It does seem for many of us, there are both front-end and back-end problems with the toxins.
Posted 8/28/2019 2:36 PM (GMT 0)
The dao & hnmt genes are involved in histamine.

Also, what if the antibiotics themselves are causing a mast cell activation? I think this could be misconstrued as a good sign or die off herx.
Posted 8/28/2019 3:05 PM (GMT 0)

k07 said...
The dao & hnmt genes are involved in histamine.

Also, what if the antibiotics themselves are causing a mast cell activation? I think this could be misconstrued as a good sign or die off herx.

What a good question! certainly possible. But in my case, somewhat ruled out, given consistency of response across wide range of antimicrobials (plant, pharma, even rife!); the flare dynamic stays the same across types. But that is merely my personal pattern with the flares, I cannot speak for anyone else!

And the fact that with these various therapies, I always improve afterwards if flaring has been strong and extended (for me level of flare engendered is usually indicative of how effective a med will be on the pathogens and correlates to symptom improvement if I stick with it. This is not the case for everyone)

Post Edited (sebreg) : 8/28/2019 9:08:37 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 8/28/2019 3:58 PM (GMT 0)
ToddPaul: in minute 43 of interview Dr Dempsey mentions some of the tests she runs to help formally diagnose MCAS. In case that can be of interest...
Posted 8/28/2019 4:22 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks Sebreg I did watch a little bit of it last night and saw that. Still waiting to hear back from my doc about the cromolyn. Hopefully he's not blowing me off. Do you have the duncani strain as well? Did you ever try Mepron?
Posted 8/28/2019 5:03 PM (GMT 0)
I'm not sure which exact strain I have. A tough one to treat that is for sure, so maybe duncani. But there is good chance I got my babesia in Germany, so could be divergens as well... or some other type or very closely similar type protozoal infection (protomyxzoa rheumatica?). At this point I use babesia as shorthand umbrella term, because walk quacks swims like it that is for sure but I don't have lab evidence to say for sure so am lacking in precision. Clinical ballpark dx, symptom and treatment dynamics mirror other babesia patients, pity I can't narrow it down though.

I never took mepron, always malarone. Moderately effective, couldn't tolerate the herxes when I first treated, took a long time to lower pathogen load and tolerate the flare response to that antimicrobial. But lost efficacy over time, as susceptible pathogen got culled. I operate under theory of when hit plateau (and still have infection), you rotate treatments.
Posted 8/28/2019 10:30 PM (GMT 0)
This has been VERY helpful. What happens when u can’t tolerate herbal tinctures anymore bc of the alcohol(burning off doesn’t cut it), are taking cromolyn, ketotifen, claritin, pepcid, Quercetin, eating strictly low histamine, minimizing all supplements with ‘potential’ histamine liberation factors(I’ve literally cut out almost all my supplements and with the ones i’m taking I’m opening the capsules), cannot outside or exercise at all due to severity of symptoms, even a taste of 1/2 drop of Beyond Balance treatment makes is so horrific, detox methods are impossible bc I react to any toxin binder/mobilizer, IR saunas are out of the question bc of heat/temperature intolerance, and you’ve just lost all hope that things are going to get better? I’m trying to hang on everyday, but things just keep getting worse and I’m terrified.

Thanks for posting this. Does it/can it/will it get better? Sorry for being morose.
Posted 8/28/2019 11:54 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Emms, I'm so glad to hear the discussion could be interest!

Have you looked into dried forms of the herbs, so could use powders in capsules or in decoctions?

It sounds like you are doing a lot of positive things and being very proactive!!! but I am so sorry to hear in spite of that it is hard to stabilize your body atm.

In your opinion, what are the primary drivers of your symptoms (is it one of the infections in particular, could it be another toxin factor like mold and or metals?). Have you made progress over time by treating the infections? did implementing the various low histamine and mcas stuff help at all with symptoms? If you are getting stuck in regards to the infections, if you haven't already, may want to explore mold and metals (especially mercury on that front). In my case babesia ended up being the primary driver, but it was sort of in the background and hard to distinguish from the other infections which were making a lot of noise.

I'm sorry that you are feeling stuck. These are are often complicated puzzles. But usually it can take finding the right effective pieces that can unlock things. What kind of issues crop up with the flare responses and detox responses (what symptoms does it amplify)? somehow the trick will be finding further ways to stabilize your body. At my worst, when symptoms were a huge storm of a mess constantly triggering my nervous system, I had to use gabapentin to put out the fire. I didn't like using that med, but it made a difference in stabilizing my body, and allowed me to start treating again (otherwise I wasn't able to tolerate any kill agents or detox, that whole episode had originally been triggered by overaggressive treatments, which as far as I have guessed ended up soooo stirring up my immune system and created immune system storm loops that kept retriggering my ANS nonstop).

Post Edited (sebreg) : 8/28/2019 6:15:22 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 8/29/2019 12:39 AM (GMT 0)
Thank you so much for this reply. The primary driver I believe is EBV ... the last Armintest showed hugely massive increase in EBV. It was 7 in January but is now at 50. Mold is zero, and mercury is low. I tested positive for Bart, Babs, Myco, etc in January but not Lyme. In June this year test, Bart, Babs, Myco were much less but Lyme at a 2. Right now it feels like I’m in a constant, perpetual flare, MCAS stimulated state...constant anxiety, heart palpitations that never stop, chest pains, severe stomach pains, diarrhea, bloating, indigestion, brain fog, nausea, weight loss, vibrations, flushing, pulsing lymph nodes behind my ears, finger joint pains, knee pain, migraines that never stop... the list goes on. I am trying dried herbs(just ordered some in powder form) but haven’t received them yet. I feel like I’m in a constant panic attack.... i did for 3 weeks take Ativan and Trazodone and it helped with some symptoms but I could feel was making things worse... so... I stopped cold turkey... and have been going through horrific withdrawal for 2 months. It has gotten better on that front but I truly believe the drugs and withdrawal made the EBV worse and has completely messed up my system. I’m still taking a sleeping pill bc otherwise it’s a further nightmare and I feel like I’m dying all night long. Every supplement, even Vit C, zinc, etc sets these symptoms off... even the adaptogens that I’m trying to use to calm my system seem to be firing it off... i get scared that if I stop the supplements I won’t get better. I haven’t seen much progress in 6 months... that’s how long I’ve been treating... and since the Ativan things have MASSIVELY gotten worse and now I’m trying to correct things. I’m paranoid about every drug and supplement now and it’s an awful place to be. The herbs did/do help - I can feel the effect almost immediately but it’s also an immediate herx/reaction within minutes of taking it. Right now the anxiety and stomach issues are probably the worst followed by the joint and muscle pains - depression is worst it’s ever been, hence my highly negative frame of mind... I cannot think at all bc i’m in this hyper paranoid fearful state freaking out constantly about these symptoms I do think over treatment is playing a part too but I can’t go without treating in tiny tiny amts but even then it’s a nightmare. I keep thinking about whether drugs like Gabapentin would help but I’m so terrified now from the Ativan that I feel too scared to try it. I’m really hoping the dried herbs will help a bit bc I stopped taking Knotweed in tincture and I could tell it was really helping my head and couple other symptoms. I so appreciate your insight... I don’t know where I’d be without this forum. I’m wondering if Chinese Skullcap(I’ve read it’s similar to benzos in terms of how it works on the CNS) would help... but then again, any benzo like herb i’m scared of. It’s crazy. Thank you for the support, as always I’m ever grateful.
Posted 8/29/2019 1:15 AM (GMT 0)
Seems like all my attempts to control MCAS are backfiring. Cromolyn and Singulair both led to even more weight gain, directly attributed to taking them and no other changes. Tried both in isolation, same thing. I'm really discouraged and upset tbh. These are supposed to be the winners in MCAS treatment and all they did was make me gain more weight, which I already am from these stupid histamines. I don't know what else to do.
Posted 8/29/2019 1:21 AM (GMT 0)
Emms- I don't think EBV is the primary driver. Sounds to me you have a lot of Babesia with a bit of Bart mixed in. I'm not sure how to help you since you are so reactive to everything. My LLMD is involved with hyperthermia treatment in Westport, CT. The clinic is only open to ALS, Alzheimer and other severely ill patients right now but eventually it will be open to Lyme patients. Maybe that could be an avenue for you to explore. He claims it's more advanced than the clinic in Germany and will be presenting this treatment at the ILADS conference in Boston at the end of October. Just a thought.
Posted 8/29/2019 7:45 AM (GMT 0)
Sebreg, you mention front end and back end and I think that is pertinent. It has to do with virulence. Ebola and the Marburg Virus, now those have some serious front end. I think the higher the front end, the less survival the pathogens have long term. It is better for the pathogen to cause less direct effects and try to avoid the immune system. I do think there are more virulent strains of borrelia but most of them let other pathogens wreak havoc and they sit back and enjoy life.
Posted 8/29/2019 7:57 AM (GMT 0)

jb1994 said...
Seems like all my attempts to control MCAS are backfiring. Cromolyn and Singulair both led to even more weight gain, directly attributed to taking them and no other changes. Tried both in isolation, same thing. I'm really discouraged and upset tbh. These are supposed to be the winners in MCAS treatment and all they did was make me gain more weight, which I already am from these stupid histamines. I don't know what else to do.

Maybe try others?

Quercetin and curcumin you can try without a prescription.
I’m just doing those two plus Zantac.
(My Dr gave me a presc for Zantac because I was having some acid reflux.)

Those three do seem to be helping with my pain levels.
Posted 8/29/2019 4:59 PM (GMT 0)
Seberg... how did figure out it was Babesia driving your symptoms? I’m thinking this may be the case for me too but it’s been completely ignored this far treatment wise. My LLND says to only focus on EBV bc my recent labs don’t show the Bart and Babs as high anymore- but is this really accurate to follow? I will try adding in Cryptolepis and Artemisia now along with the Knotweed and see what happens. I ordered the LB Core Protocol herb capsules from Green Dragon - hoping the dry herb will be better tolerated for me than the tinctures. Hoping the combo of herbs is helpful too. What did you use to treat Babesia/Bart etc? It’s so difficult to figure out the ‘driver’. Do you have EBV too?
Posted 8/29/2019 5:15 PM (GMT 0)

Emms said...
Seberg... how did figure out it was Babesia driving your symptoms? I’m thinking this may be the case for me too but it’s been completely ignored this far treatment wise. My LLND says to only focus on EBV bc my recent labs don’t show the Bart and Babs as high anymore- but is this really accurate to follow? I will try adding in Cryptolepis and Artemisia now along with the Knotweed and see what happens. I ordered the LB Core Protocol herb capsules from Green Dragon - hoping the dry herb will be better tolerated for me than the tinctures. Hoping the combo of herbs is helpful too. What did you use to treat Babesia/Bart etc? It’s so difficult to figure out the ‘driver’. Do you have EBV too?

Sorry I didn't respond to your other comment sooner. My various docs totally missed my babesia, even the top-level llmd I'm working with. It was just hard to distinguish with all the symptoms. I really had an aha moment linking babesia and my symptoms when I read this article, helped me finally figure out the constellation of ANS symptoms I had were all connected to babesia: https://conniestrasheim.org/blog/2017/3/6/a-deep-look-at-the-symptoms-of-six-major-lyme-related-infections

Also, the fact that all my core symptoms always flared strongly to antiprotozoals, and this response was consistent across various types of antiprotozoal meds and herbs.

EBV eh? I had high titers too. But honestly, my thinking? It comes down to chicken and egg. I think it's the tick-borne infections that allow EBV to really reactivate (or mold, mercury, etc). Not the other way around. That's just my opinion though.

How does your llnd know the bart and babesia aren't as high? far as I know there isn't an actual way to test for how much pathogen there actually is. if it is antibody titers that just measures your immune system response, a lower number doesn't mean there is lower pathogen load. It could be your immune system is just creating fewer antibodies in that moment for various reasons, but to ascribe direct connection to actual pathogen load based on those numbers? I don't think there is a connection, per my understanding.

Post Edited (sebreg) : 8/29/2019 11:19:11 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 8/29/2019 5:34 PM (GMT 0)

jb1994 said...
Seems like all my attempts to control MCAS are backfiring. Cromolyn and Singulair both led to even more weight gain, directly attributed to taking them and no other changes. Tried both in isolation, same thing. I'm really discouraged and upset tbh. These are supposed to be the winners in MCAS treatment and all they did was make me gain more weight, which I already am from these stupid histamines. I don't know what else to do.

Have you tried other antihistamine combos? Lonnie Marcum mentions some different possible mixes and matches in one of her articles. Some of us have problems with particular classes of histamines and cytokines, so likely will be variance in what combos work from person to person.
Posted 8/29/2019 5:51 PM (GMT 0)
Wow... this article just made me rethink everything... thank you so much. I have her book and I completely overlooked these descriptions and I think maybe, Babesia and Some Bartonella are my biggest problem. Did you treat Babesia with herbs? Cryptolepis?
Do you know how to get Cryptolepis in dried/powder form? I’m having a hard time finding a source. Thanks so much for your reply. It was just an antibody test so the one I had few months ago showed high Babesia and Bartonella and Myco and EBV but this last one doesn’t show the same but I agree that it’s not very accurate given my symptom picture right now. I’m trying out Crypto and Artemisia now... hoping to see ‘something’ that will trigger me to believe I’m finally hitting the right thing! Did you use these herbs?
Posted 8/29/2019 5:57 PM (GMT 0)

Emms said...
Seberg... how did figure out it was Babesia driving your symptoms? I’m thinking this may be the case for me too but it’s been completely ignored this far treatment wise. My LLND says to only focus on EBV bc my recent labs don’t show the Bart and Babs as high anymore- but is this really accurate to follow? I will try adding in Cryptolepis and Artemisia now along with the Knotweed and see what happens. I ordered the LB Core Protocol herb capsules from Green Dragon - hoping the dry herb will be better tolerated for me than the tinctures. Hoping the combo of herbs is helpful too. What did you use to treat Babesia/Bart etc? It’s so difficult to figure out the ‘driver’. Do you have EBV too?

As Sebreg mentioned - you can’t test to gauge treatment.

My highly regarded, very knowledgeable LLMD treats all patients for Babesia - he says it’s the infection that is often holding people back from healing.

Definitely something for you to look into.
Posted 8/29/2019 6:58 PM (GMT 0)
Emms- I found crypto to hit a little but nowhere near as hard as neem. I was recently on a neem powder from Banyan and wow did that bring out all the Babesia symptoms (night sweats, air hunger, anxiety, heart palps and more). That would me my choice if you want to bring out Babs symptoms. I've never tried Art so can't attest to that one. Everyone will react differently to different things but that's just my experience.
Posted 8/29/2019 8:21 PM (GMT 0)

Emms said...
Wow... this article just made me rethink everything... thank you so much. I have her book and I completely overlooked these descriptions and I think maybe, Babesia and Some Bartonella are my biggest problem. Did you treat Babesia with herbs? Cryptolepis?
Do you know how to get Cryptolepis in dried/powder form? I’m having a hard time finding a source. Thanks so much for your reply. It was just an antibody test so the one I had few months ago showed high Babesia and Bartonella and Myco and EBV but this last one doesn’t show the same but I agree that it’s not very accurate given my symptom picture right now. I’m trying out Crypto and Artemisia now... hoping to see ‘something’ that will trigger me to believe I’m finally hitting the right thing! Did you use these herbs?

So glad that article could be of interest! the description of babesia symptoms 100% fitted my own experience. It was... uncanny, and made my whole situation click, everything made perfect sense once I read that.

I really liked herbs, they gave me some progress with babesia. CSA is good, artemisia/artemisinin as well. But they only took me so far. I'd always plateau, so basically just had to rotate whenever I plateaued. The babesia flares have also always been tough (this is where working in MCAS protocols has really helped as I've mentioned). I rotated through various babesia treatments, malarone was very effective for me for a while, especially in beginning phases of babesia treatment. Coartem has been great. Currently taking disulfiram which is super strong on my babesia, in fact I think it may have helped fully get that infection under control (tbt).

Otherwise, I did rotate through a lot of herbs too. Things like allicin, neem (as ToddPaul mentions, it's a good one!), bidens, A-bab (quite good), artemisia, artemisinin, various essential oils.

But overall, strongest meds for my babesia? those have been coartem and disulfiram. I did get major herxes to CSA and malarone when I first started treating babesia. Ivermectin also hit my babesia. If you are a big herxer, I think it's best to try and lower pathogen load with less intense meds (herbs, malarone, etc), get the pathogen load down over time, and then down the line can consider some bigger guns (like DSF, coartem, tafenoquine, etc).
Posted 8/29/2019 9:15 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks for all this info.
What do you think of Anthony Williams’ take on Lyme disease? I have all his books and it resonates with me, but it’s difficult to actually believe given what every one of us deals with regarding these infections. I guess this should be a separate post. Maybe I’ll post this.
Posted 8/29/2019 10:58 PM (GMT 0)
Sebreg: Re : Coartem.

That's a combo of two drugs right? One being Artemether (pharma derivative of Artemisia/artemisinin) plus lumefantrime
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