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very high liver enzymes: LLMD want me to keep pushing, MD says no

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Posted 11/18/2019 9:50 PM (GMT 0)
Hi everyone,

After been infected for 1.5 tear, I’ve constantly been battling high liver enzymes which seem to go higher the longer I push with ABX.

I’m currently treating with Dr. J in W. DC.
3 weeks ago , right before a 2 weeks off AVX break (im pulsing 2 on 2 off), my enzyme came back very high.
Ast: 60 Ast: 120
At the time, I thought things would be ok as I would have 2 full week to recover and get those down with detox.

The thing is that since stopping, the enzymes keep raising to reach an all time high for me last friday (at the end of 2 weeks off).
Result were AST: 85 ALT:177

I was supposed to resume ABX today. NP K. Told me to resume ABX as planned, as the enzymes were most likely due to infection in liver.

That said, my previous LLMD used to really stress the importance to stop ABX when my result would be higher than 3X normal ranges.
My current MD says he don’t approve of le pushing further with these numbers.

I feel lost in this.
Should I Keep going or not, in your opinion?
Posted 11/18/2019 11:01 PM (GMT 0)
There have been a few times I have doubted what my LLMD (Dr. J or one of his NP's) has told me...but you know what? They were usually right on.

There is so much knowledge...and experience within the walls of that clinic.

I was told to take leucovorin because my wbc count is too low. I doubted it..."what the heck are they talking about"
Well, I decided to do what they said.... and within two weeks...my wbc count went from the usual high 3.9-4.0 up to 4.8. Yes it could be coincidence - I will see what happens next blood draw.

Prior to Dr. J. my liver enzymes climbed....but then after extensive bart treatment, they normalized. Even my bilirubin was good - which I've had high bilirubin since my late teens...and no one knew why...so it was chalked up to "Gilbert's Syndrome'.
Haen't had high bilirubin since.

I think I would push through like they are saying....maybe give yourself a few more cycles and see what happens.
Since they didn't go back down after two weeks off...anyway...right?

I understand your concern though....been there...done that sooo many times.
Posted 11/19/2019 3:21 AM (GMT 0)
You might be right Girlie.. *sigh*.
I hate situation where I « feel » that there is no good option for a given problem.
Thank you for your reply, it’s much appreciated. smile
Posted 11/19/2019 10:24 PM (GMT 0)
Pushing sounds like a bad Idea to me, given the circumstances. I understand your concern. I do not know Dr. J, but I wonder what he would say if you told him you are not comfortable with his recommendation and want to increase your rest periods, decrease dosages, support the liver further, etc.? From what I hear, he's responsive to concerns, right?
Posted 11/19/2019 10:35 PM (GMT 0)
What are you doing to address the liver situation?

I highly recommend several things. TUDCA, coffee, parsely, dandelion root, molybdenum, milk thistle and kutki.

Kutki is an herb few know about but its super powerful liver tonic. I recommend a product with Kutki ( Picrorhiza) ORGANIC INDIA Liver Kidney Supplement

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/b003xncham/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s01?ie=utf8&psc=1
Posted 11/20/2019 2:54 AM (GMT 0)
Yes, I find this very risky....

Right now I'm taking 2 caps of Milk Thistle a day. This product:
https://botanicahealth.com/product/milk-thistle-liquid-capsule/
Dr J. says to take 500mg of Milk Thistle a day. That would be 3 caps, right? That's what I,m taking.

I've started today taking LOLA. 1 teaspoon a day.

I drink lots of water and eat gluten/sugar free. I drink 2 decaf everyday, I cannot tolerate cafeine anymore.

According to my genomic Dr, it would not be recommended for me (genetic mutation) to take NAC or Glutathione....

Maybe I should add some of what you mentionned here Lapis...
Posted 11/20/2019 6:00 AM (GMT 0)
i would stop the treatment if i were you. start taking NAC, ALA and Milk Thistle. Then when your liver enzymes come back down , start again but this time continue taking NAC and Milk Thistle, and ALA if your MD/LLMD agrees. But i dont see why they wont, NAC is also a biofilm buster.

you have many chances to stop and restart treatment, but unfortunately we all have one single liver...
Posted 11/20/2019 1:55 PM (GMT 0)
update: after mentionning to the clinic that my stool were also abdormally pale, they agreed that I should be holding off ABX for now.

mpost: I'm already taking Milk Thistle (see my previous reply for amount and brand I take). I cannot take NAC because of a genetic mutation (same for gluthatione). I might be adding ALA this week end.
Posted 11/20/2019 2:40 PM (GMT 0)
there's some concern ALA might free up mercury in your system and move it around in your system. and it may even attack lyme cell wall and causing herx. I believe in both. I took the smallest amount of ALA and had to cease taking it.

you might want to get two different brands of milk thistle or a fresh bottle just to mix things up.

eat things that don't cause a load on your liver.

also laughing therapy, enough to shake your belly 20-30 minutes is a thing. for me I watched some old pewdiepie

deep breathing exercises to get oxygen.
Posted 11/20/2019 3:01 PM (GMT 0)
Buhner mentions taking up to 1200mg Milk Thistle a day if liver enzymes are high (until they come down). My PA doesn't want me taking Milk Thistle on my ABX days, but I take up to 1400mg on my days off. I believe Buhner calls Milk Thistle a "food grade herb."
Posted 11/20/2019 3:16 PM (GMT 0)

ChristianWithLyme said...
Buhner mentions taking up to 1200mg Milk Thistle a day if liver enzymes are high (until they come down). My PA doesn't want me taking Milk Thistle on my ABX days, but I take up to 1400mg on my days off. I believe Buhner calls Milk Thistle a "food grade herb."

I’m curious - Did the PA give you a reason why no milk thistle on abx days?
Posted 11/20/2019 3:30 PM (GMT 0)
My PA recommended I don't take Milk Thistle on ABX days. In her detox info sheets she gave me, it said don't take Milk Thistle "within 4 hours of taking any medications. It can speed up or slow down many drug's metabolism."
Posted 11/20/2019 3:32 PM (GMT 0)
Could anyone with enough knowledge about supplement, please tell me how many capsule of this product I need to take a day, to reach 1000mg Milk Thistle a day?

https://botanicahealth.com/product/milk-thistle-liquid-capsule/

What confuses me is that there's different numbers given on the label.
For example, it says that every 3 caps contain 24 000g of dry herb.

Also, does Milk Thistle need to be taken on a empty stomach?
Posted 11/20/2019 3:33 PM (GMT 0)

ChristianWithLyme said...
My PA recommended I don't take Milk Thistle on ABX days. In her detox info sheets she gave me, it said don't take Milk Thistle "within 4 hours of taking any medications. It can speed up or slow down many drug's metabolism."

Ok - good to know.
I may have missed that on my paperwork.
Posted 11/20/2019 6:06 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Alexander,

Sounds like my ALT/AST levels during my abx treatment. My LLMD told me every time they would start to climb to get it retested in a day or two. Sometimes the ALT/AST levels can climb because herxing (die-off) can occur locally in the liver which can cause a spike in liver enzyme levels. How often are you getting your CBC/CMP done? If the liver enzyme levels are still high or even higher a couple days later, it may be that you should take a couple weeks break. I'm not sure about milk thistle...I heard something bad about it later on in my treatment so I ended up taking it out. I forgot what it was.

Keep fighting!
Posted 11/20/2019 10:58 PM (GMT 0)
Honestly cannot recommend TUDCA enough, very potent. Not sure about your genetic things though and if you can tolerate it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc5134868/
Posted 11/20/2019 10:59 PM (GMT 0)

Somebody said...
The decrease in liver enzymes associated with cholestasis is quite strong, and TUDCA is a reference drug for these effects

https://examine.com/supplements/tauroursodeoxycholic-acid/
Posted 11/20/2019 11:03 PM (GMT 0)

ChristianWithLyme said...
Buhner mentions taking up to 1200mg Milk Thistle a day if liver enzymes are high (until they come down). My PA doesn't want me taking Milk Thistle on my ABX days, but I take up to 1400mg on my days off. I believe Buhner calls Milk Thistle a "food grade herb."

Girlie said...
I’m curious - Did the PA give you a reason why no milk thistle on abx days?

Girlie: Ever heard of Milk Thistle possibly inhibiting detoxification?
https://youtu.be/vd3tvkyi8vi?t=32s
Posted 11/20/2019 11:29 PM (GMT 0)
It’s only $499. smile
Posted 11/20/2019 11:45 PM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...
It’s only $499. smile

What's $499?! Or, was that a response to someone else?
Posted 11/20/2019 11:47 PM (GMT 0)

The Dude Abides said...

Girlie said...
It’s only $499. smile

What's $499?! Or, was that a response to someone else?

Dude - Maybe you posted the wrong link?
It was a sales pitch lol

9 hour detox for $499
😖
Posted 11/20/2019 11:58 PM (GMT 0)

Lapis_29 said...
Honestly cannot recommend TUDCA enough, very potent. Not sure about your genetic things though and if you can tolerate it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc5134868/

Lapis,

Any reputable brand recommendations? Microbe Formulas TUDCA is too expensive for me to “try.”

Anybody,

Would TUDCA be beneficial or advisable if your liver labs are normal but you have a lot of toxins/sensitivities/detox impairments? What would be the benefit and expected result?
Posted 11/21/2019 12:07 AM (GMT 0)
unrelated, but I know if you take milk thistle with modafinil it'll increase its strength because milk thistle blocks the creation of an enzyme that is used to break modafinil down. I've used it to take lower dosages of modafinil and increase its potency. Basically doubles the strength. could be the internet version of old wives tale, fake, but it works for me. I don't take modafinil anymore however.
Posted 11/21/2019 1:55 AM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...
It’s only $499. smile

The Dude Abides said...
What's $499?! Or, was that a response to someone else?

Girlie said...
Dude - Maybe you posted the wrong link?
It was a sales pitch lol
9 hour detox for $499
😖

D'oh!

Sorry, I'd remembered the part in the video about Milk Thistle, but didn't finish the video. (I'd seen it months ago.) I just watched the end of the video and see the program was originally $499 for practitioners. Now, it's $1,197.

However, he has a version for non-practitioners that's $129. This is the one I've mentioned before that I plan to buy, if I can ever get another job.

I've heard several, hour-plus long interviews with him (I've posted them, too, in the past) and I like that he is guided by published evidence (though that information isn't infallible). He seems to be a critical thinker that's interested in finding truth.

Aside from the detoxification program he created and sells, he consults with folks for a fee.*** But, beyond that, he doesn't sell supplements or books. In fact, one of his videos stated his detoxification program mostly uses food with a few inexpensive supplements that folks can buy (if they wish to use them) in their local stores or online. He doesn't even have an affiliate relationship with others or send people to an Amazon.com store that pays him a commission. I like that he's untangled from those things. Too many others have a variety of financial relationships. I'm not saying that alters their recommendations, but, when a person doesn't have those ties, there's nothing to question.

Anyway, sorry, I didn't mean to hog the thread. We now return you to your regularly-scheduled program.

___
***He turned me down, actually, despite my wanting to hire him. He said he would like to help, but my challenges seemed beyond the scope of his expertise and he didn't want to waste my money. He even waived the fee to review my case and did it for free.
Posted 11/21/2019 2:37 AM (GMT 0)
Nutricost TUDCA is the one I use, works great. There is another one that is fake, can't remember the brand, gotta be careful.

If you read thru the examine link I posted you can see all the benefits. Great stuff.
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