Gupta Program vs. Annie Hopper’s DNRS for ANS dysfunction

Just curious to see if anyone has tried either Gupta, Hopper, or both (I know Saraeli has done Hopper’s program), if there’s a major difference between the 2, and any success or failure stories with either one.

I went ahead and purchased the Gupta Program after talking to my pal DcD (mainly because Gupta’s exercises seem to be able to done quicker) and have been doing some of the brain retraining exercises here and there - no changes yet. I’m aware it may take weeks or months and Gupta says you should commit to at least 6 months. It seems both programs operate under the theory that the ANS dysfunction is the result of the parts of brain responsible for fight or flight response (limbic system) become hypersensitive or stuck in a negative feedback loop after the trauma of battling a virus, lengthy illness, etc which sends the nervous and immune systems into overdrive which leads to chronic inflammation in the brain. The resulting outcomes are your classic ANS dysfunction syndrome such as chronic fatigue, POTS, etc. It makes a lot of sense in my mind. I’m fairly high functioning but my ANS dysfunction remains the last giant mountain to overcome. I’m 7-8 months into IVIG and it hasn’t helped, unfortunately. I was at 95% but after resuming exercising 3-4 times a week (light intensity, maybe 15-30min tops) for 2 months it threw me back into the vicious cycle. Haven’t worked out in 3 weeks and still the same. The stress of physical exercise triggers my brain somehow and I get POTS, which generates fatigue and anxiety which really has become more intrusive in my life lately.

Gupta aims to break this loop in your brain by helping you create new pathways/utilizing neuroplasticity via visualization techniques and other analogs of CBT, mindfulness, meditations etc.

Being self employed and a father to a 16 month old, I really do not have an hour every day to do all the different things that they recommend. Gupta’s main retraining exercise is only 4ish minutes and I try to get a few in each day. There’s also more intense techniques such as the “Accelerator” which is about 10mins, plus other meditations and activities, some of which I have not gotten to. Gupta divides his program into about 15 chapters (the first few explain the rationale/science behind the program) but states that the focus is really only on a couple of the chapters such as the main retrainer so that’s what I’m trying to do.

I’m assuming the Hopper DNRS exercises are similar but I’ve heard that the exercises were an hour long and that’s why I went with Gupta. Has anyone out there done one, the other, or both? Any Advice, tips?

saraeli said...
I'm always happy to talk about DNRS, but it sounds like you've seen my (many) posts about it. The DNRS exercises are supposed to be done for a total of one hour per day, but you can do one "round" in 5-10 minutes. I tried to do a full hour each day but often ended up only having time for 15-30 minutes total per day, broken up into two or three stints. I still saw great improvements fairly quickly at that rate. I definitely hear you about how hard it is to find the time! Thanks for sharing more about the Gupta program, as I find it interesting but have not tried it myself.

It’s been a while since I read your posts on it, do you have a link to one of your main threads or posts? Does what I describe with Gupta sound similar to what you did with Hopper? How quickly did you see results? I’m really looking at the POTS symptoms as the indicator if I am improving or not.

I’d be happy to explain more about Gupta if you’d like

I really feel like this could be the missing piece to a full recovery. The first couple chapters of Gupta are devoted to describing his theory so the user understands what’s going on, then there’s a chapter/exercise on creating visualizations/positive memories that will be used in the main retraining exercise. There’s also mixed in some meditations, a chapter on calming the nervous system (including some diet and supplement recommendations), - a more intense accelerator exercise, and the later chapters all seem to be more CBT/Mindfulness related. Gupta states that you can basically use 4 of the chapters as the core (the ones which describe the theory, the main retrainer chapter, and one other - the calming the nervous system one I think).

This is something that I've really been thinking about trying since I can't seem to get 100% better and have tired countless things. Still have some fatigue most days, headaches, gut issues, brain fog, etc. I just havent been able to pull the trigger on spending $500 for something that may or may not work..

Post Edited (NicHostetler) : 7/22/2021 10:22:38 AM (GMT-6)

Nic, the Gupta Program is 349 (I believe) for a year membership to the web-based program, and it seems to have a 15% discount that’s been going on for quite a while (the code is on the website) so I paid 300 or so and have access for 12 months.

Within a couple of weeks of purchase you also receive a giant manual that basically contains the stuff he talks about in the videos but it’s written out, and also a giant floor mat to do the 6 step main retraining program, but you don’t really need either to do the program (I just visualize the 7 step floor mat in my head).

Anyways, to answer some of your questions Saraeli, as I mentioned in the initial post, Gupta divides the program up into 15 chapters, each containing several videos that range from 4-20min depending on the topic. He says right in the beginning if you have limited energy (which I also extrapolate to include limited time) to just focus on chapter 2,4,5, and 7.

2 is intro to meditation, 4 is preparing to retrain your brain and contains a few exercises to develop the visualizations you will use in the main retraining technique and some other spots. 5 is the main retraining technique (the main 7 step one is 4 and a half minutes, and there is a super short version which is like 90 seconds where you basically just do step 1,2 and 6 of the main technique). Chapter 7 is relaxing the nervous system and contains videos with suggestions on pacing, diet, sleep, and nature. There’s a mediation to help you sleep (haven’t used it since I don’t have any sleep issues) and he gives concrete suggestions on an anti-inflammatory diet including foods to eliminate, reduce, and some supplements - many of the suggestions are familiar to those of us in this community. Diet is an area where I definitely need to work on, which I always say, but still have yet to put into action.

There are chapters on attitudes for success (which are probably similar to the thought policing you mention), mindfulness, the accelerator technique, and the last few chapters are other techniques for retraining different “parts” of your brain (which all basically boil down to cognitive behavioral therapy techniques or meditations). I think these chapters are more for changing your mindset, attitude, etc. I don’t find those to be appealing at this time so I haven’t really dove into them.

Do I find it easy to stick with? Yes! Though the weekends are where I tend to miss days The accelerator technique is 10 mins and feels like an actual exercise (you basically visualize yourself back to situations/memories where you felt the negative feeling (and this varies from person to person, I am focusing on anxiety when I do it) and then tell your brain to stop, do some breathing, and repeat. I try to do 1 accelerator a day.

The main technique I’ve been doing once per day but Gupta says you should do it many times a day whenever you feel symptoms, searching/scanning for symptoms, etc. It’s 4.5 mins and involves you doing some physical movements, breathing, visualizations, and repeating some phrases which I think are subconsciously retraining your mindset. The short version basically just has you do the “stop, stop, stop” when you notice or anticipate symptoms and then skip straight to a visualization.

Gupta says if you can’t physically move for whatever reason to just visualize doing it. I can definitely make a better effort to do the short version while I’m in my car driving around seeing clients (my car would be in park of course lol).

Like any exercise, the more you do the better results you’ll probably get. Gupta says to commit up to 6 months - which makes sense given how slow nerve growth and forming new pathways takes. Some people notice differences very quickly, others may take a lot more time, and I’m sure there’s people it won’t work for for whatever reason (probably if you have a concrete autoimmune deficiency or illness like Lupus, it isn’t going to cure your lupus.)

It seems right up my alley with my symptom pattern (pots, anxiety, fatigue) and that my brain is stuck in the fight/flight response. Will it work just as well doing only a few parts instead of everything? Time will tell, but I think each individual can look at all the available material, techniques, meditations etc and use what they think best applies to them and also what they can realistically stick to and do on a daily basis. You can spend an hour plus every day doing these things if you really want to. I just don’t have the time and some of the later chapters don’t really appeal to me.

Gupta gives you a lot of tools to choose from… Everyone should be doing the main 7 step retrainer though (and/or the short version), and you need to do the chapter to develop the visualizations that you will use. I think that the main retrainer (regular and short versions) and the accelerator are what feel most right for me, and I think they’d probably appeal to most of us on here as well.

Does this sound similar to the main DNRS stuff you did Saraeli? Does the 5-10 minute DNRS round that you were doing sound similar to the main 7 step retrainer Gupta does (I’ve gotta think they must be pretty similar).

Hopefully this post made some sense, was typing it while putting my son to bed so had to start and stop a few times 🤣

I’m glad they are so similar! Makes me feel like I’ll get some of same results you got with DNRS. I imagine that limbic system retraining (I’m sure there’s probably a few others besides Gupta and Hopper’s) must all be done pretty similarly and that the method it’s presented is what separates them on an IP basis.

You mention the DNRS videos are dated? Gupta’s all feel pretty modern and are filmed in peaceful settings.

Being able to do any of the techniques while symptoms or thought patterns are occurring seems to be the most difficult part for me so far. It does sound like the time commitments between the two aren’t too far apart, either. It can definitely overwhelm anyone if you go for full immersion into it. I spent my first few days taking my time playing the videos in the first few chapters which explain the theories and why you’ll be doing the techniques that you end up doing. It makes so much sense from a physiologic perspective - I hope they continue to do more formal studies on them.

Once I got the ability to perform the main retrainer and the accelerator I decided to stick with those, for now. They feel like actual physical exercise in a way. Even then I’ve still missed a few days in a row here or there - it really does take and lot of mental effort to change your habits and commit.

Did you find that you slid back or saw decline after finishing the 6 months or whatever time frame Hopper recommends? Or does she suggest you do them ongoing?

Bailey, the testimonials in the DNRS program do get old, for sure. They're interspersed among the instructional and educational content, but each segment is separate, so you can skip over them. I think it makes sense that they are included so participants can see examples of the sorts of illnesses and dire conditions from which people recovered, but skipping them would not affect your outcome. I was bedridden when I did the program, with sensitivity to sound and movement, so watching videos and even reading were difficult, but I found the program to be worthwhile, and saw improvements quickly. Doing the program with another person is a fantastic idea! Annie Hopper recommends often to have a DNRS buddy of some sort to keep you motivated. I think that a lot of healthy people could benefit from tuning up their limbic systems. The DNRS videos can feel hokey, but keeping an open mind and making the practice your own really works, or at least it did for me.

Solaris, the DNRS videos have production quality that would have seemed fine when they were made but now seem a little low-tech, is all. Nothing that really affects the content or accessibility, but I mention it because young people especially might find them tougher to connect with because they're so much less sleek and snappy than, say, TikTok. I actually didn't stick with the program for the recommended six months. I practiced DNRS every day (although not usually for the full hour) for about two months. By the end of that time, I had gotten out of bed, fixed up and sold one house, bought and renovated a house in a new city, and moved my family there. So I should have stuck with it for six months, I'm sure, but the results were incredible, and I got wrapped up in enjoying them! I revisit the program for a month or so when I feel like my health is declining, and it helps to get me back to a decent baseline. Honestly I don't remember what she recommended about whether to continue past the six month recommendation, but I can't imagine it would be deleterious to do so.

I believe that there's a lot of power in the limbic system retraining modality, and I always feel so excited when someone else has taken the time to understand it and give it a chance.

If I recall correctly, DNRS is 14 hours total, which you're supposed to do as close together as you can, ideally within a week. You can purchase a transcript of the program, but I'm not sure if it includes everything. I found the book (which is not the same as the transcript and does not include many details of the program) fairly useless.

Some of the videos are embedded YouTube videos, which have closed captions you could read with the sound off or very low. And many of those are testimonials, which in my opinion can be skipped without detracting from the program. Skipping testimonials would decrease the overall time by an hour or more. Other videos are background information about how the brain works, which I think are important not to skip because understanding how the practice can change the brain is what keeps people motivated and able to take the program seriously. People who aren't educated about this stuff (neuroplasticity, all the things the limbic system affects, etc.) think DNRS is just a positive thinking course and dismiss it.

Annie Hopper's voice is the voice you'll hear most often. I do not consider it especially high-pitched. There's nothing flashy or loud or boisterous about the videos. DNRS videos are not taxing to watch, relative to watching a movie or even a TED talk. They're soothing, in my opinion. You're more likely to be bored than overstimulated.

From what Solaris reports, it sounds like the Gupta programs offers more shortcuts and tells you what to focus on if you have limited time or energy. Gupta offers more guidance around other lifestyle factors, such as sleep and diet, and the cost includes 12 weeks of coaching. The web interface for Gupta looks great. When I first looked into both programs and decided on DNRS, the Gupta program (which had a far worse website back then) seemed to focus on the amygdala, rather than the limbic system more broadly, which is why I chose DNRS.

Bailey said...
I’m trying to choose between the 2. Does the Gupta program have lots of like infomercial qualities with like constant testimonials? I heard dnrs is like that and I don’t have the time with ok sound tolerance for that now. Also can a healthy person do the program? I was going to try to enlist mom’s help to keep me motivated.

No testimonials or infomercials at all. Anyone can do the program (as long as you have the ability to see and hear the videos of course).

I’m leaning toward Gupta mostly because you said I can just do the shortcut version. I signed up for the free trial. Even starting in module 2 there was a lot of stuff I skipped.... I prettymuch mostly just want exercises. The meditation, I sort of developed my own version since i’ve heard yoga stuff before. His audio instructor hung for the mediation was helpful so I knew what he actually meant to do... not sure if I’ll ever use it again though since I get the gist and sound time is precious to me.

Thanks I just bought the Gupta program. I had myself so calm I think I half slept through modules 4/5 so I’m not sure I got all the specifics right 😜. It’s was great advice to skip to the specific modules! Thanks! I was a tad disconcerted about some of the methods because I didn’t want to lie to myself.... no one knows the future, but I get the gist of what he’s saying. Hopefully the way I modify it for honestly won’t make it not work 🤣

Bailey said...
So I sort of skipped around and tried to get the gist of the program. Correct me if I’m wrong but basically sessions that matter are 2, 5 and 8 but mostly just 5, especially for a sick bedridden person who doesn’t need diet tips or pacing advice on how many errands to run around town.

I also want to mention for anyone with similar questions as me, you definitely can feel the eastern philosophical and religious influence on the program (think the religions and philosophies that created yoga). I’m not sure if I messed up the program by I sort of just tried to get a grasp for the principles then altered parts of the program and steps to fit my religion and theology. I substituted in phrase or verses from my religious text. By the end of my modifications I felt pretty good about it and thought the exercises helped me toward a more mature place spiritually. It did require one or two fairly major modifications which I hope won’t jeopardize effectiveness. Actually now that I think about it, I think my modification involved a sort of grafting in of the accelerator technique into the main technique from session 5.

As long as you’re doing some form of the program with regularity, I don’t think the modifications with make any negative difference. If you can get a positive visualization or two on your own to use during the retrainer/accelerator without doing session 4 then you’ll be fine. The later sessions aren’t part of the core program per Gupta himself anyways, but I’m sure some will find them helpful.

I've been reading through this thread and am now seriously considering DNRS or Gupta..

Do you both (Solaris and Saraeli) still have good results so far? For me, I'm tired of spending money on stuff that doesn't ever really help, although I think I read that these programs offer a money back guarantee.

I still have headaches, fatigue, brain fog, gut issues etc. most of the time. Are these symptoms that have gotten better for either of you during the training?

So far for me it relaxes me. I feel my head untense and I get sleepy. I have a lot of other stuff going on too though so it’s hard to say what is causing what. I’m not exactly disciplined about it but do the technique whenever I feel my heart rate tick up (fairly often). It definitely can relax me sometimes snd make me sleepy.

Something interesting happened where my throat hasn’t been closing on things that is usually does (anything that breaks down biofilm usually makes it swell some till I take abx to wipe,out whatever), I’m truly not sure if it’s this or because I finally cut all lactose meds out 2 weeks ago. I’ve been trying to get estimates and some people say it take 3-6 weeks for you to see the results of ceasing dairy.

The Gupta program was weird because while,it relaxed me my mcas symptoms temporarily ticked up a couple days after starting. I don’t know if this is because of what saraeli talked about with like second week being hard or because it was a tough histamine high point in my cycle. I had also been trying and failing to start l theanine which I think is doing odd things to my cycle hormones.

Sorry this all probably just muddles things for you decision, but it’s all the data I have to offer at this point. I decided to buy it because I realize my current doc would probably tell me to buy and try one of these two at one point anyway, so why not go ahead and do it before they ask.