Article: Do remnants of Lyme bacteria cause ongoing brain inflammation?

Garzie are these the blebs you were mentioning?

dcd2103 said...
But does that prove the body doesn’t clear them?

Such a great question dcd. You mean the blebs right? I have no idea honestly. My gut tells me the body would eventually clear them since their dead. Although, I could be wrong.

RainyCloud said...
Garzie are these the blebs you were mentioning?

not quite - i think they used spirochetes that were bred in medium then broken up using ultrasound pulses till they were just fragments of proteins and Pepto glycans - bits of membrane etc - injected those into live monkey's brains and later did autopsies and took samples for detailed analysis

i think they were trying to demonstrate that any remaining bits of stuff made from spirochetes could drive inflammation in the brain - which would be no surprise - but as above - it doesn't prove that these fragments are actually present long term after infection is gone.

my understanding of a bleb in spirochaetal infections - is that the organism is able to break of bits of itself - mainly outer surface proteins and with perhaps bits of DNA or cytoplasm or plasmids inside - that form a kind of bubble - and is targeted as non-self by the immune system. some microbiologists theorise that this may be a defence mechanism to act as decoy for the host immune cells - increasing the live spirochetes chance of evading the white blood cells - a bit like a fighter aircraft will drop chaff and flares to try and distract enemy missiles.

i guess the researches are just trying to fill pieces of the puzzle in one small piece at a time - that's how science works - frustratingly small steps.
but its just one theory or many current theories proposed to explain long term symptoms - despite long term antibiotics.

personally i tend to think most ongoing symptoms are caused by ongoing infection and its downstream effects
i think the body is pretty good at clearing bacterial debris - and i think after months or a year max - maybe a lot sooner it will likely have cleared this
and we have all seen and heard of people who were very ill with very hard to treat lyme and co infections and then finally found treatment that worked and became well again - so i think that also points to infection having been present long term and when cleared recovery is possible.
similarly the case report of the woman who underwent treatment with multiple antibiotic combinations for 16 years and still had spirochetes in her major organs at autopsy.

so i think we just have a lot of ideas floating around trying to explain why people have symptoms after antibiotics that were expected to be curative - and since the infection is assumed to be gone - now they need to explain why symptoms continue - but the assumption is false. These people just an not appreciating how tough chronic infections can be.

Post Edited (Garzie) : 1/30/2022 3:15:15 PM (GMT-7)

Garzie said...
so i think we just have a lot of ideas floating around trying to explain why people have symptoms after antibiotics that were expected to be curative - and since the infection is assumed to be gone - now they need to explain why symptoms continue - but the assumption is false. These people just an not appreciating how tough chronic infections can be.

Oh yes, I actually am on the same page. I think the infections aren't cleared which are continuing the symptoms/cycle. I'm not doubting that at all.

I just thought blebs were the same thing as what the article was mentioning, hence the confusion. Two different things. Thanks for clarifying.

Kind of frustrating how they keep coming up with new theories when we already know the infection being still there, causing the problems.

Dr. Horowitz had an opinion on this on Facebook the other day. Here is just a small snippet:

Dr. Horowitz said...
If there is one thing that could potentially raise my blood pressure on a Saturday morning, its reading about dead Lyme bacteria causing symptoms in people's brains causing neuroinflammation. I'm not sure why this research is being funded at a major university like Tulane, where Monica Embers has shown conclusively that short term antibiotics don't kill borrelia in the primate model. She published several excellent articles (see the scientific overview below). So when I read the title of this article:
"Could long-dead bacteria be the culprit behind lingering Lyme symptoms?" my first thought is, not that remnants of bacteria can't cause inflammation, but why are these researchers ignoring the incredibly large body of scientific evidence that borrelia persists, in biofilms and persister forms, apart from cell wall deficient forms, driving inflammation. Ignoring the fact that if these persistent remnants were so important, why does double dapsone combination therapy work in 50% of patients after 8 weeks, putting them in remission for a year or longer (especially if babesia and bartonella are not active?) Are these researchers not aware of the decades of scientific information on persistence of Lyme, especially at an institution like Tulane where Monica works?
(copy and paste the link at the end to read the article as all of the references below have links...)
There is a clear disconnect and I can only hope and pray that the 3rd and last HHS TBDWG will find a way to break the medical-political stalemate of the past 40 years which has denied the unreliability of Lyme testing and persistence of borrelia. There is also a clear denial on the importance of all the factors on the 16 point MSIDS model. What is the point of publishing all of the articles listed below if the authors don't incorporate the full scientific overview into their work?
Yes, remnants may play a role, but they are far and away not the only factor causing neuroinflammation. Just look at the role of heavy metals and environmental toxins in the brain when mixed with bacteria like Lyme, herpes viruses, etc with biofilms (this has all been published). So if anyone would like to send the list of articles below to Tulane, feel free.

Then it went on with all the articles.

This is very similar to what D rMcDonald and Tom Grier's findings have found in upper mid-west diseased/donated MS brains.

Some of what they found (reminants, debris ect) does not just go away.

Several past threads on this from years ago.

They got nowhere with it, conventional medical convention attendees walked away at their imaging proof. Typical.