Abx vs natural herbs

Wondering why most people on here choose the abx route rather than natural herbs and I'm curious as to why? Abx wrecks havoc on your body.and gut in general and the herxing is even worse. Is it because you people find that abx works better for you than herbs or ?? Benefits pros and cons. I'm jw

MedicalNerd said...
Wondering why most people on here choose the abx route rather than natural herbs and I'm curious as to why? Abx wrecks havoc on your body.and gut in general and the herxing is even worse. Is it because you people find that abx works better for you than herbs or ?? Benefits pros and cons. I'm jw

I did try herbals early on - but it didn’t work -so I switched to antibiotics.

It is interesting though that herbals are considered for Lyme and CO’s treatment.
But you wouldn’t take herbals if you had (for example) an infected bite from a horse.

Or an infection my husband had several years ago - he ended up on IV abx due to a serious infection in his arm. (Nothing to do with Lyme disease) and was told he could lose his arm.

Unfortunately, we have to rely on our doctor's advice and experience along with anecdotes from others to make judgement on treatment effectiveness. It's sad to say, but I'm not convinced there is a good treatment for Lyme/tick borne disease once it is chronic. That said, it seems from my experience, that treatment with a LLMD using combo abx + whatever is generally more helpful than herbal protocols by themselves. That might not be true, but, it's my sense after 6 plus years of this illness. That's not a glowing endorsement of combo abx. Seems like fails much of the time as well. Even when it works it seems that quick relapses happen to some people once off antibiotics.

Traveler, Good to see you back. I agree with your comments on herbals and abx in combination are needed based in individual tolerance.
Even Buhner recommended that abx was needed to support his herbal protocols.

I started with abx, then moved to an herbal mix, then had to drop herbals after a heart attack due to their blood thinning side effects impacting my Rx heart meds doing the same.

As far as abx messing up your gut and liver... so be it, this disease will put you in a wheel chair otherwise. Whtat's worse?

tickbite666 said...
Traveler, Good to see you back. I agree with your comments on herbals and abx in combination are needed based in individual tolerance.
Even Buhner recommended that abx was needed to support his herbal protocols.

I started with abx, then moved to an herbal mix, then had to drop herbals after a heart attack due to their blood thinning side effects impacting my Rx heart meds doing the same.

As far as abx messing up your gut and liver... so be it, this disease will put you in a wheel chair otherwise. Whtat's worse?

Hi Tickbite! Thank you, it's always nice to have a warm welcome back! I'm coming on here from time to time (basically whenever I dig out my laptop) and see if I can add to a thread, without confusing everyone of course!! I do find that many of the threads are just not for me anymore, but that's okay, as I've healed and am just hoping to help out a bit. I do still get people contacting me from this site, so I do like to try to keep up somewhat though.

I have found over the decades that I've been involved with healing Lyme (either myself or helping others out), that which approach will work for any individual is about as unique as each body. Each body has at least slightly different weaknesses and strengths, and since these bacteria take every advantage they can, they will use each weakness to their advantage. That's not to mention different approaches all have different treatment options to add in! It can all be sooo confusing, especially to those that are new to this 'world of Lyme and company'.

I would encourage everyone to find what works for them - not what someone has told them they must use to heal. I find that often, those of us that have had success with one thing or another, have a tendency to overstate how much someone else might need the same thing. Sometimes, even with the same symptoms, we have different things going on that may need to be addressed in different ways due to our tolerance levels or something else.

As far as abx vs herbals, why choose??? Use them both if that's what you feel more comfortable with!! The very first treatment I did use was pharma meds (but detoxing was not known about back then), and it went very, very poorly for me. I had to only detox for 6 months and then go to herbals only. It worked for me, but I also had to use an herbal protocol that doesn't work for a lot of people - although it healed my Lyme infection in 1 year after nearly 4 decades of no treatment. Bartonella only took 9 months (concurrent with Lyme treatment), and Babs took another year - so in that respect, I was lucky. Herbs not only worked for me, but worked very well. I also used a Master Chinese Herbalist, so I'm sure that helped.

The main point is to find A treatment that works for you - whatever that may be, as long as it's safe. We've been through enough, we should be careful to not put even more on our bodies by experimenting too much.

Anyway, that's just my personal opinion! LOL.

MedicalNerd said...

Traveler said...

Girlie said...

MedicalNerd said...
Wondering why most people on here choose the abx route rather than natural herbs and I'm curious as to why? Abx wrecks havoc on your body.and gut in general and the herxing is even worse. Is it because you people find that abx works better for you than herbs or ?? Benefits pros and cons. I'm jw

I did try herbals early on - but it didn’t work -so I switched to antibiotics.

It is interesting though that herbals are considered for Lyme and CO’s treatment.
But you wouldn’t take herbals if you had (for example) an infected bite from a horse.

Or an infection my husband had several years ago - he ended up on IV abx due to a serious infection in his arm. (Nothing to do with Lyme disease) and was told he could lose his arm.

There is definitely a time and a place for each type of medicine. As an herbalist, it's critical to know this, and if someone is using an herbalist that doesn't understand this, it's time to find another herbalist that is based in reality!!

I recently (20 months ago) had to stop ALL of my herbs all at once. I had developed blood pressure issues and I was not responding to the BP meds - ending up in the hospital for them to try to stabilize me. Because of all of the Pharma meds I now require, I can not use most herbs now because the research on them is so lacking in respect to their interactions with pharma meds. I now require pharma meds to keep me alive, so herbs now sit in the back seat for me.

I am NOT happy with this arrangement, but I have no desire to play with my life either. The pharma meds I use now just barely keep my BP under control, so adding any uncertainty into the mix just isn't a good idea for me. But, if I could, I would run back to my herbs - they worked better than any pharma med for other things in my life. This is just my personal experience.

There's a time and place for each form of treatment - the trick is to figure out which one will work best for us at any given point in time!

I try to keep up with most posts, but to my understanding Traveler, I thought you were cured and just came on here to keep helping ppl? Or are you still sick now and I misunderstood the post?! After reading about the chronic tonic I was very encouraged!

Actually, if used early, herbs can be used for most any condition, including even serious infections. I mean how serious is an infection with tick-borne infections that have been untreated for decades?? But, there are some instances where it's just better to use Western Medicine. Things like not being able to find a highly qualified Herbalist means you won't get the help you need, so it's Western Medicine. But, that being said, Western Medicine is hands down the best thing when Emergency Medicine is needed in the case of life and death. Herbs are supposed to be used before that point, even Western Medicine used before it becomes critical is important! =)

As for me - I am healed. What happened is that in Jan of 2021, I realized I had high blood pressure. Went to the local yocals (they play at being a doctor) and I was put on BP meds, normal dose. Exactly 7 days later, my BP doubled, started spiking into the stroke zone multiple times a day, and I started getting shaking every time my BP rose to stroke zone area.

I have now had everything possible tested, and I'm healthy as a horse for my age!!! ****! On paper, I look spectacular!! I have super low calcium buildup in my veins, my adrenals and thyroid are functioning very well, and so on. Unfortunately, the BP spikes STILL continue! Fortunately, I'm on enough meds (9 freaking 'scripts!!) to keep it steady now for 6 - 8 weeks at a time, then I have one or two BP spikes into the stroke zone and then I'm back to steady BP. Rinse and repeat!

Doctors of course, have given up trying to discover what happened so we can actually stop these "episodes", but I haven't. I tracked it down to autonomic nervous system damage from having untreated Lyme/Bart for nearly 4 decades. I am easily able to prove it with plenty of mainstream medical articles - but no doctors are interested. I think it's partly because each test that would prove this would also set off my BP again, and we are trying to stop those!!! Each time I risk aneurisms, stroke, eye damage, liver/kidney damage and so on. So I kind of agree with them on no more testing. I have to keep any and all stress very low - emotional or physical. At the beginning of this summer, just 2 hours of being out in the heat that was high enough to make me sweat would set off the BP spikes again - but that's better than last year! Being out in the heat, even if I came inside before sweating would set off my BP spikes again.

All of that to say - GET TREATED!!! LOL! Just because I finally healed the infections doesn't mean I'm scot-free - I have to live with the damage that was done. I'm super grateful my heart and other critical things aren't damaged at this point!!!

*Edited to add, during these last 20 months, I have had zero tick-borne infection symptoms return. Not that 8 didn't worry about it happening!! I was scared silly my infections would reactivate during that whole thing!! And I'm still trying to rebuild my body after that. It was amazing how much muscle I lost, not to mention weight! It's been another struggle, but fortunately one I'm all too familiar with, so no learning what to do.

Post Edited (Traveler) : 8/29/2022 4:10:49 PM (GMT-7)

In any of these protocols to heal these infections, mono therapy very rarely ever works, whether using herbs, abx or other treatments.

The bacteria learn how to avoid the treatment too fast when only one is used at a time.

MedicalNerd, whatever you choose to use, I wish you all the best.

No, I don't have any symptoms of any infections. Believe me, everything has been tested, and I lived with these infections long enough (nearly 4 decades) to know what I feel like when I have one of them. No POTS, that was one of the first things checked

-Ive not read this whole post-

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why did I choose ABX over Herbs?

Because I wanted a Dr to treat me who had experience, and thats how most do it. I found a Functional MD LLMD so there were lots of supplements too. This Dr treats the gut first for long term Lymies - looks at the whole body, not just eradicating internal "bugs". This Dr sees gut issues BEFORE even treating lyme. Its there before ABX, not just after for many people. I obviously knew my gut was "wrong" decades before ABX too. My gut first went nuts from a gut bug in Mexico when I was about 7 or 8 - and slight gut issues ever since after that episode. thanks Mexico. .... I also had tick bites (in "tick country") before that...so I was doomed health-wise from childhood onward.

Conventional Drs are not allowed to do this, they are forced to follow the flawed plans of insurance companies...Doxy for two weeks and your done LOL (only if positive on a cheap blood tests too)..

I also had prob $3000 - $5000 in a variety of conventional blood tests covered 100% by my medical insurance to in two years. To get these tests you need a script from an actual Dr in the USA.....or else pay 100% out of pocket my purchasing them online and driving to a participation blood draw clinic, and them pay even more for each blood draw.

**I went from almost non-functioning to 80% functional enough to be employed in only two years.*** Unless someone is rich, making money is needed - My #1 priority in life is to provide for myself, because no one else will lol.

PLUS- unless one has been studying this for years, its difficult and overwhelming to learn the herbal route. Its not until the last ten years that most people are aware of health forums too. Forums make optional treatment plans more well known.

I did use some herbs too (not much) , but on my own.

Post Edited (astroman) : 8/30/2022 11:38:16 AM (GMT-7)

Traveler said...

tickbite666 said...
Traveler, Good to see you back. I agree with your comments on herbals and abx in combination are needed based in individual tolerance.
Even Buhner recommended that abx was needed to support his herbal protocols.

I started with abx, then moved to an herbal mix, then had to drop herbals after a heart attack due to their blood thinning side effects impacting my Rx heart meds doing the same.

As far as abx messing up your gut and liver... so be it, this disease will put you in a wheel chair otherwise. Whtat's worse?

Hi Tickbite! Thank you, it's always nice to have a warm welcome back! I'm coming on here from time to time (basically whenever I dig out my laptop) and see if I can add to a thread, without confusing everyone of course!! I do find that many of the threads are just not for me anymore, but that's okay, as I've healed and am just hoping to help out a bit. I do still get people contacting me from this site, so I do like to try to keep up somewhat though.

I have found over the decades that I've been involved with healing Lyme (either myself or helping others out), that which approach will work for any individual is about as unique as each body. Each body has at least slightly different weaknesses and strengths, and since these bacteria take every advantage they can, they will use each weakness to their advantage. That's not to mention different approaches all have different treatment options to add in! It can all be sooo confusing, especially to those that are new to this 'world of Lyme and company'.

I would encourage everyone to find what works for them - not what someone has told them they must use to heal. I find that often, those of us that have had success with one thing or another, have a tendency to overstate how much someone else might need the same thing. Sometimes, even with the same symptoms, we have different things going on that may need to be addressed in different ways due to our tolerance levels or something else.

As far as abx vs herbals, why choose??? Use them both if that's what you feel more comfortable with!! The very first treatment I did use was pharma meds (but detoxing was not known about back then), and it went very, very poorly for me. I had to only detox for 6 months and then go to herbals only. It worked for me, but I also had to use an herbal protocol that doesn't work for a lot of people - although it healed my Lyme infection in 1 year after nearly 4 decades of no treatment. Bartonella only took 9 months (concurrent with Lyme treatment), and Babs took another year - so in that respect, I was lucky. Herbs not only worked for me, but worked very well. I also used a Master Chinese Herbalist, so I'm sure that helped.

The main point is to find A treatment that works for you - whatever that may be, as long as it's safe. We've been through enough, we should be careful to not put even more on our bodies by experimenting too much.

Anyway, that's just my personal opinion! LOL.

Wow, it's impressing how you got rid of the bart faster than lyme or babs. For myself and lots of us on here it seems bart is our primary infection and issue forgetting rid of! This is what I'm I'm worried about . I feel bartonella is my predominant infection and I feel it's going to take lo get to get rid of. It's interesting how some ppl can take abx and cure their bartonella in 6 -9 months while some ppl are on abx or herbals for years with no luck. The human body is such a weird thing sometimes . I've been infected for like 25+ years already. I didn't know about detox before and my last llmd said detox didn't matter at all which I strongly disagree with. Detoxing and diet change made a big difference for me. I agree with using a combination of herbs plus abx especially if needed. My only issue is sibo. I have 1 bowel movement per day if I'm lucky and I know as long as I've been sick I may need to take abx since I been sick for decades. If I didn't have sibo I'd definitely go for abx.

Traveler said...

MedicalNerd said...

Traveler said...

Girlie said...

MedicalNerd said...
Wondering why most people on here choose the abx route rather than natural herbs and I'm curious as to why? Abx wrecks havoc on your body.and gut in general and the herxing is even worse. Is it because you people find that abx works better for you than herbs or ?? Benefits pros and cons. I'm jw

I did try herbals early on - but it didn’t work -so I switched to antibiotics.

It is interesting though that herbals are considered for Lyme and CO’s treatment.
But you wouldn’t take herbals if you had (for example) an infected bite from a horse.

Or an infection my husband had several years ago - he ended up on IV abx due to a serious infection in his arm. (Nothing to do with Lyme disease) and was told he could lose his arm.

There is definitely a time and a place for each type of medicine. As an herbalist, it's critical to know this, and if someone is using an herbalist that doesn't understand this, it's time to find another herbalist that is based in reality!!

I recently (20 months ago) had to stop ALL of my herbs all at once. I had developed blood pressure issues and I was not responding to the BP meds - ending up in the hospital for them to try to stabilize me. Because of all of the Pharma meds I now require, I can not use most herbs now because the research on them is so lacking in respect to their interactions with pharma meds. I now require pharma meds to keep me alive, so herbs now sit in the back seat for me.

I am NOT happy with this arrangement, but I have no desire to play with my life either. The pharma meds I use now just barely keep my BP under control, so adding any uncertainty into the mix just isn't a good idea for me. But, if I could, I would run back to my herbs - they worked better than any pharma med for other things in my life. This is just my personal experience.

There's a time and place for each form of treatment - the trick is to figure out which one will work best for us at any given point in time!

I try to keep up with most posts, but to my understanding Traveler, I thought you were cured and just came on here to keep helping ppl? Or are you still sick now and I misunderstood the post?! After reading about the chronic tonic I was very encouraged!

Actually, if used early, herbs can be used for most any condition, including even serious infections. I mean how serious is an infection with tick-borne infections that have been untreated for decades?? But, there are some instances where it's just better to use Western Medicine. Things like not being able to find a highly qualified Herbalist means you won't get the help you need, so it's Western Medicine. But, that being said, Western Medicine is hands down the best thing when Emergency Medicine is needed in the case of life and death. Herbs are supposed to be used before that point, even Western Medicine used before it becomes critical is important! =)

As for me - I am healed. What happened is that in Jan of 2021, I realized I had high blood pressure. Went to the local yocals (they play at being a doctor) and I was put on BP meds, normal dose. Exactly 7 days later, my BP doubled, started spiking into the stroke zone multiple times a day, and I started getting shaking every time my BP rose to stroke zone area.

I have now had everything possible tested, and I'm healthy as a horse for my age!!! ****! On paper, I look spectacular!! I have super low calcium buildup in my veins, my adrenals and thyroid are functioning very well, and so on. Unfortunately, the BP spikes STILL continue! Fortunately, I'm on enough meds (9 freaking 'scripts!!) to keep it steady now for 6 - 8 weeks at a time, then I have one or two BP spikes into the stroke zone and then I'm back to steady BP. Rinse and repeat!

Doctors of course, have given up trying to discover what happened so we can actually stop these "episodes", but I haven't. I tracked it down to autonomic nervous system damage from having untreated Lyme/Bart for nearly 4 decades. I am easily able to prove it with plenty of mainstream medical articles - but no doctors are interested. I think it's partly because each test that would prove this would also set off my BP again, and we are trying to stop those!!! Each time I risk aneurisms, stroke, eye damage, liver/kidney damage and so on. So I kind of agree with them on no more testing. I have to keep any and all stress very low - emotional or physical. At the beginning of this summer, just 2 hours of being out in the heat that was high enough to make me sweat would set off the BP spikes again - but that's better than last year! Being out in the heat, even if I came inside before sweating would set off my BP spikes again.

All of that to say - GET TREATED!!! LOL! Just because I finally healed the infections doesn't mean I'm scot-free - I have to live with the damage that was done. I'm super grateful my heart and other critical things aren't damaged at this point!!!

*Edited to add, during these last 20 months, I have had zero tick-borne infection symptoms return. Not that 8 didn't worry about it happening!! I was scared silly my infections would reactivate during that whole thing!! And I'm still trying to rebuild my body after that. It was amazing how much muscle I lost, not to mention weight! It's been another struggle, but fortunately one I'm all too familiar with, so no learning what to do.

I'm happy that you're healthier than a horse for your age.ive just turned 30 and feel as if I'm for or 50 at times lol. Did you know that ginger and cinnamon lower and stabilize blood pressure? They have tons of natural ways to lower BP instead of meds, not sure if you've already tried it. People literally ask me if I have aids or if I'm using drugs or if I'm anorexic now and it bothers me a loads. I suffer from weight loss and muscle loss as well. Did that muscle and weight loss issue get fixed after being treated? I had rickettsia (rmsf) and I know I read that can cause anorexia early on.