Thyroid BP adrenals

Blakeleysmom said...

She has been tested twice in four years for thyroid antibodies which was negative. It’s also on the next lab order to check those tests Astroman mentioned. Should an ultrasound be done as well?

Its good that your testing those again. TPO and TGaB are the two most important for autoimmune hypOthyroid.

Some Drs will test TSI antibodies as well (even thought thats 90% related to hypErthyroid.).

Ultrasounds are generally only done if the Dr can feel an enlarged goiter, or if high antibody levels are present, which both can disfigure the gland. Ultra sounds offer a visual of the gland shape.

In regular "non-hypothyroid" there is nothing to deform the gland. Which is why its easier to treat and can be cured easier.

Wow, Quin, i realize how little I know about Adrenals from your post! All I know is that since the first year, we’ve been told that she is in constant fight or flight and her adrenals need support. This most recent dr is the first to have her do the 4 point saliva test and that’s all I know. Obviously, I need to start researching more about the things you mentioned.

I’m going to try to answer the questions I know answers to. Her vitamin D levels are always great (she supplements vit d). Honestly, I don’t know what blood tests have been done for cortisol. So those you listed above is what we need to ask for?

TSH was around 1 when on 45 mcg t3. Previous dr had said she didn’t care about that even when the TSH was .05. When the t3 was reduced to 15 mcg TSH was 4.5. This current dr said it all looks good 🤷🏻‍♀️
Previous dr upped her t3 dose once when TSH was around 2 so I don’t know if just two schools of thought or who’s right.

I feel like I’m rambling now but I will try to investigate more on this. At appointments, she has so many symptoms and so much to discuss, I feel like most things don’t get a deep look.

Blakely‘s mom- I looked at the lab result history. Although you didn’t have the ranges (and there are a couple of different ones) I am quite familiar with the variations of thyroid ranges.

It looks to me like the first doctor may have been trying to treat reverse T3. How this is treated is by giving more , and only T3 hormone. If this was the case, and it certainly looks like it was - the doctor never went on to treat hypothyroidism like you normally would after the reverse T3 normalized. I gave a more thorough explanation in the email.

Another important note if you will be resuming more thyroid testing while still on any T3 do not take T3 within six hours of the test because it will elevate it way too high.. T3 is used up fast and short lasting. T4 is called the storage Hormone and it does not change much at all within 24 hours.

In my case since I take natural thyroid combination of T3 and T4 my last medicine dose was in the afternoon the day before the test. And I always test in the morning that way it takes many variables out of my test results when I’m comparing them.

Regarding "constant fight or flight and her adrenals need support" - This can refer to two different problems.

One is too much adrenaline/epinephrine production. This tends to cause sleep issues and depletes vitamin C and B vitamins. When I had this problem, the abnormalities that showed up on the blood tests most consistently were increased homocysteine and low carnitine.

The other issue is the pituitary secreting too much ACTH in response to low cortisol. It's not so much the ACTH itself that is the problem here, but the beta-endorphin that tends to get produced along with it. The endorphins lead to constipation/diarrhea and insulin resistance. This really messed up my blood sugar.

17-hydroxyprogesterone is a precursor to cortisol and some people have a genetic problem where too much of this accumulates, so usually when you start seeing adrenal problems you'd want to confirm or rule that out.

Vitamin D is tricky. With these chronic infections, vitamin D metabolism can get messed up to such a degree that some people react badly to vitamin D supplements. I don't know if that's the case for Blakeley, but it's a potential concern since you mentioned vitamin D supplements. One of the effects of too much vitamin D is that the liver tries to get rid of the excess, and ends up removing cortisol in the process, stressing the adrenals further.

Blakeleysmom said...
Medicalnerd, how to address adrenal fatigue in the best way? The hydrocortisone I know was hopefully a temporary support bc her symptoms are so bad. Also we have been supporting her adrenals for years w supplements so idk what’s best to get her out of it. Maybe we are not doing the right thing.
She has been tested twice in four years for thyroid antibodies which was negative. It’s also on the next lab order to check those tests Astroman mentioned. Should an ultrasound be done as well?
She has been adding LMNT to her water as well as kosher salt to diet. We do have Himalayan sea salt. If that’s better, we’ll def switch to it.
I created a chart of her thyroid lab test results since 2019 until now. And how her meds were changed accordingly. I wish I could send it to you Astroman or upload here.

My kids and myself all have adrenal fatigue. My youngest son and hydrocortisone and might work at first , but in the long run it seemed to mess up his immune system even more. So no meds for us and I know everyone is different and I'm not a doc. But keto diet was what worked for us and those specific vitamins I mentioned. We cut out gluten, dairy mostly, and also grains . Cutting out grains worked great for my adrenal fatigue. What work today may not work next week as things can change. Cut out sugar, processed, packaged, frozen, can foods. This part is so hard because my kids don't understand and when I explain to them they say they don't car and still want to eat whatever they want. My youngest son with thyroid, severe eczema, rashes, allergies, asthma tried hydrocortisone and it honestly did nothing for him. Tbh it seemed his immune system got worse. 2-3 meals a day is what's working. Taking grains out of diet made adrenal fatigueich better. No more burning eyes , fatigue or crashing after meals. When we have adrenal fatigue, our bdoeicant process or digest grains really as my doc told me. I went mostly all carnivore, just meat. Salmon, chicken, turkey, nutrional yeast flakes are full of vit b's that are so important for adrenal function and thyroid function . I'd start there and see if you feel a difference.amd then you'll know.

Quin said...
Regarding "constant fight or flight and her adrenals need support" - This can refer to two different problems.

One is too much adrenaline/epinephrine production. This tends to cause sleep issues and depletes vitamin C and B vitamins. When I had this problem, the abnormalities that showed up on the blood tests most consistently were increased homocysteine and low carnitine.

The other issue is the pituitary secreting too much ACTH in response to low cortisol. It's not so much the ACTH itself that is the problem here, but the beta-endorphin that tends to get produced along with it. The endorphins lead to constipation/diarrhea and insulin resistance. This really messed up my blood sugar.

17-hydroxyprogesterone is a precursor to cortisol and some people have a genetic problem where too much of this accumulates, so usually when you start seeing adrenal problems you'd want to confirm or rule that out.

Vitamin D is tricky. With these chronic infections, vitamin D metabolism can get messed up to such a degree that some people react badly to vitamin D supplements. I don't know if that's the case for Blakeley, but it's a potential concern since you mentioned vitamin D supplements. One of the effects of too much vitamin D is that the liver tries to get rid of the excess, and ends up removing cortisol in the process, stressing the adrenals further.

Very nicely explained, simple. I had a vit d test and my doc said the levels were untraceable. Meaning it was a 0, I had no vit d. Lyme disease doesn't let our bodies absorb vit d so we should be taking d3 which is the better form. I take liquid d3 along with zinc. There's only.certsin sources of the vit I'll use because so many fillers and additives tbh. Then you don't even know if it's working or not. My b6 was triple it's levels even though I was never taking b supplements to begin with. I've been taking nutritional yeast flakes for a week and have been so much calmer and able to sleep a little better. I know people might disagree, but I'm just finding out my adrenal fatigue and rage, anxiety, depression have been caused by many years of being b1 deficient which is thiamine. Antibiotics are like number 1 culprit to deplete you of b1 and there's research on this. Look at the loads of abx we've been on for years I can see how it makes some sense. Hope this helps someone.

You guys are so helpful. Astroman, I replied to your email. I get what you’re saying and Blakeley has in fact felt terrible for years but most recently thought we had a better handle on lyme but still she feels horrible. That’s why the focus on thyroid and adrenals currently.

I will probably miss someone’s questions, but she has done thyroid testing in the early morning to mid morning (typically same time range), fasting, no med since previous dosage day before.
She has been gluten, yeast, sugar, and dairy free for prob 2-3 years now. Bless her, she eats a limited range and also can not tolerate beef so not many choices on her menu.
Quin, I’m going to look at her past lab results and see if those things mentioned have been tested and what levels were. I do know she’s been on carnitine a couple of times. Are there specific doctors she could see that know all this about the adrenal situation? We’ve only seen LLMDs and no endocrinologist or any typical med dr about these two specific issues.
She was told to stop vit d supps once bc her levels were just a tad high so now she takes one every other day. Maybe we should stop altogether and see what happens.
Hydrocortisone: honesty, she doesn’t know if it helps or not. She is taking it to try to help regulate her energy levels and get her out of such fatigue all day. Who knows? They changed the thyroid meds and added hydrocortisone and other things so she can’t tell what’s doing what. Just desperate for symptom relief at this point. Not sure to stop it and just see or what. I definitely have a lot to research.
Thanks again for all of your willingness to take the time to share.

Interesting stuff Quinn.

Just thought I’d point out Some spelling similarities so people don’t get confused like I did at first lol.

Carnitine Is a form of amino acid but it’s spelled very close to food carotene, which is vitamin A.

(I had to look on my vitamin A bottle which I’m starting to take in hopes that I will elevate my white blood cells)

Post Edited (astroman) : 1/14/2023 10:04:42 AM (GMT-8)

ACTH is a lab test.

“An ACTH test is often done along with a cortisol test to diagnose disorders of the pituitary or adrenal glands. These include: Cushing's syndrome, a disorder in which the adrenal gland makes too much cortisol. It may be caused by a tumor in the pituitary gland or the use of steroid medicines.”

I had it tested because I had a high cortisol blood
test.
I then had a 24 hour cortisone test. I had to collect my urine for 24 hours and bring it to the lab and they calculated the cortisone number.

Ended up having an MRI of my brain to look at the pituitary gland.
Findings were: “ pituitary stalk deviated to the left”

Then of course I wondered if there was a tumor pushing my pit stalk to the left.

Went down many rabbit holes searching for a diagnosis.
(Which turned out to be Lyme and CO’s disease)

She had a blood test for the alpha gal but it came back negative. The beef thing only started about two years into treatment. It just makes her feel so nauseated and sick to eat it. We have also tried only organic beef and that also makes her sick.

It was done at doctors office at appt. Bill came through PathGroup. Also, she had not skipped thyroid med that day bc we didn’t know they were going to test.

We are actually at LabCorp now getting all the tests done that any of you mentioned. I just ordered it all through walk in lab so I can get whatever tests needed. Then I can take results to next Dr appt. I did not want to wait to get him to order it all. I should have results by end of week and will post on this thread.

Garzie said...

astroman said...
Antithyroid Peroxidase= 14 (<9-34)
Antithyroglobulin = 16.5 (<10-115)

Odd thyroid antibody labs. Usually there is a limit of one number. If your under the # its neg., over that # and your pos.
.

Garzie says : i noticed that also - i wondered if the <9 refers to the limits of detection - and the other number is the limit of normal range - ie anything above 34 is considered outside range ?

several of these tests cannot detect v low levels of antibody

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Astroman says: Like those ranges are maybe some sort of actually "gray area" with that lab (for lack of available accuracy). Oh wait,....I think that's what you meant too......lol

No one wants a "gray" area.

The modern high tech mechanical/computer run blood test machines today dont have a "gray area". They are accurate to a single number value "cut-off or "ceiling / max" ect. Ive seen them in detail, amazing what they do.

Post Edited (astroman) : 1/17/2023 12:13:57 PM (GMT-8)