Jernigan Nutraceuticals...

DocGP said...
LymeLee and others...
I don't get it! In his book, he says that his patients don't herx...that herxing is bad and represents incompetence in the medical provider. Why should LymeLee be suffering? I know I am a skeptical doctor, but I am also a doctor who knows that there are always risks in taking various products, especially non-FDA regulated ones, into one's body. No, the FDA is not the end all and be all, but at least they do have some rules. I am worried for LymeLee...the fever, the bone pain...I am concerned. Dr. Jernigan specifically says that people should not suffer on his treatments.
LymeLee, how are you today?

DocGP, you ask, why LimeLee is having so much trouble with the healing at home protocol if in his book he says herx's should never happen with good treatment. In Dr. Jernigan's book he is referring to the person who is under the care of a doctor shouldn't have severe herx's...not just someone treating their self at home, even with the Perfect 7 protocol. Treatment at the clinic bears little resemblance to what the Perfect 7 Protocol says.

As Dr. Jernigan explained to me, when I asked him about the home protocol and the differences between this and treatment in his office, this is what I recall him saying, "the Perfect 7 was developed as a best educated program to fit the average person with Lyme disease". If people are getting worse on the protocol they likely need the skill of what the doctors actually do in the clinic to tailor the treatments to their specific condition.

I don't think Dr. Jernigan has ever said in his book that no one ever gets a herx with his treatments. I recall him saying that, "Severe herx's that are just thought of as "good medicine" by antibiotic-prescribing doctors is a sign of a poor treatment plan". The point he's trying to make is that all efforts should be made to minimize the worsening of a Lyme patient during treatment. He never said we won't experience herx's while being treated for Lyme disease. You are taking some of his comments out of context, not only that, you are misquoting and twisting his words around. The more I read your comments regarding Dr. Jernigan and the Hansa Center, the more I've come to believe you have some kind of an agenda to discredit him. I could be wrong, but that's the sense I get from reading your comments about him.

Dr. Jernigan doesn't believe that having harsh herx's is a good way to measure if a patient is making progress like many are led to believe when they have horrible herx's for days at a time (sometimes weeks at a time). He does try to minimize to the best of his ability the discomfort that herx's have on his patients, but he never says they won't have herx's, or they won't have some degree of discomfort from his treatments. How you've come to this conclusion is beyond me.

You talk about rules that the FDA have about regulating medicine, and yet, you're more concerned about medicines that are unregulated, like the one's Dr. Jernigan treats his patients with. On another thread you said, "Antibiotics for Lyme gave me pancolitis and a 14 day hospitalization where I nearly died. I never had a colon problem in my life. I am not the only one. I now ask every colitis patient I see how theirs started, and antibiotics for something has been the answer for many, many patients. I would stay AWAY from them at all cost. I know that doesn't leave much for you to do...I am right there with you...BUT, losing your colon would be horrible".

So, what's so great about FDA regulated medicine if it almost killed you and hospitalized you for two weeks with pancolitis? None of Dr. Jernigan's "unregulated" medicines have ever caused me to have any serious side effects, and certainly none of his medicines almost killed me and put me in the hospital for two weeks. And yet, you even go so far to tell forum members to stay away from antibiotics at all costs because of the risks of losing their colon. I seriously doubt that the non-toxic remedies patients get from the Hansa Center are anything they'll need to worry about ruining their colons, or any other part of their body for that matter.

On one hand, you are telling people you are concerned about the unregulated natural medicines that Dr. Jernigan prescribes to his patients, on the other hand, you are telling people to avoid conventional treatment for Lyme disease (taking antibiotics). Kind of contradictory if you ask me. Like I said, it appears you have some kind of an agenda against Dr. Jernigan and, yet, you tell people to avoid antibiotics. So, what do you suggest those of us with Lyme disease do?

I have more to say, but we've been out of town for a week at an Expo and it's very late and I'm too tired to finish this post. If I have some time I will return to it tomorrow when my mind is fresh. I think you should continue to read his book, Beating Lyme Disease". If after reading his book, if you still aren't convinced that Dr. Jernigan is not one of the most knowledgeable and experienced doctors treating this disease, then I don't think anything is going to convince you. I seriously doubt you want to be convinced anyway, it seems your agenda is to discredit a good doctor who has helped thousands of chronically ill patients get better. At least that's how it appears to me.

In the mean time, since you advise Lyme patients to avoid antibiotics, how do you suggest they go about treating their disease? What do you tell those of us who have gotten better using "unregulated, non-FDA approved" medicines (including his treatments and therapies)?

I hope to come back to this thread soon when I have more time to discuss this further. Until then, I look forward to your response.

Gary

Post Edited (GWB) : 7/23/2010 10:08:18 AM (GMT-6)

All,

Do you know if you are supposed to do all steps of the Perfect-7 Jernigan protocol at the same tame as the borrelogen or lymogen? Or, do you take the borrelogen for a month, then the lymogen for a month and then do all of the other stuff?

Thanks

Gary, the only agenda I have is to find a way to cure Lyme and associated diseases, and to ensure patient safety through the journey. The person I advised to avoid further antibiotics was a person with colitis. I absolutely believe in prescribing antibiotics for Lyme and I have done so as recently as 3 weeks ago. But, everything comes with risks. If a person has a bad outcome from antibiotics, then they should be stopped and the situation re-evaluated. The FDA is one consumer protection. Natural/herbal remedies don't require FDA oversight. No inspectors come to see the conditions under which they are made. Nobody spot checks the products to see what's in them.

I truly hope that Dr. J is dong no harm. I may even try to see him one day. But, as I read this book, I am not convinced. He says some far out things, like on page 47, where he says that infection can be "activated through auto-suggestion-usually the news media"...
I think that speaks for itself. If someone said that to me at my job, they would be diagnosed with paranoia. Like I have said repeatedly, I am keeping as open of a mind as is humanly possible for a physician reading this book. He may be on to a whole different way of healing, one that is superior to allopathic medicine. I don't know. I wish there was some science to prove it to me and my colleagues. I have tried to look up several statements in his book, and there is nothing to support that they are true. He makes a reference to a ring around the iris. That's based on something called iridology, which has been discredited in study after study. Iridologists guessed people's medical conditions at a rate no better than chance, over and over.

Gary, I am a physician. I care for people. I have no agenda other than that. I seek the truth. I seek what can be proven and repeated under controlled conditions. However, I will accept the unexplainable, so long as nobody gets hurt in the process.

I would love it if all the people who have gone to Hansa would post here, especially the ones who did not have such great experiences as Gary and Don. In order for any one to come to their own conclusions, all sides need to be heard.

I'm on page 229...let me keep reading. Like all of you, I am hopeful.

Hi, CajunGirl...
I cannot find the page, but he refers to a scurf ring. The following does a nice job of explaining what Dr. J apparently believes in, but which scientific studies have disproven time and again.

http://altmed.creighton.edu/Iridology/principles_of_iridology.htm

I do believe that illness can manifest in a variety of ways, and that evidence of illness can be seen in various body parts. But, I am a person of science, and as far as iridology goes, the science points against it. Of course, that's not to say that eye exams cannot help diagnose certain diseases. For exam, there are things called Kayser Fleisher rings which do exist and indicate copper deposition. However, the rationale for the scurf ring just doesn't have science as a basis.

I just did another quick search and here's another site that you can go to to see more about it.

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/iridology.html

I've heard of having a brown ring around the iris when there is toxicity of the liver. Is this the same thing he is talking about?

Thanks hun:)

Hi all,

I posted about Scurf Rim before:

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=1819493&p=1&ord=a

Anyway, instead of reading about it, I believe the proof is in the pudding (or in the eyes)!  So if you have a camera, take photo's of your eyes, then start dry skin brushing everyday, do the detox baths (tub if you have one, foot baths, infrared sauna, and internal detoxing) and then take more photo's of your eyes as each day passes (keeping a log) and see (no pun intended) what happens!  You may be in for a big surprise!!

Denise

nasalady,

First of all, thank you for your prayers. I always appreciate when people are praying for me as I do for many of you on this forum as well.

We are packing up to leave leave where we are to fly back home to OK, so I won't have time to address all of the issues in your post to me, but I will when I return home. However, one issue I feel that needs to be addressed now is your comment, "Gary, please try not to defend Dr. J so strenuously....."

In my book, that's called crossing boundaries. First of all, I don't even remotely agree with you that I have "so strenuously defended Dr. Jernigan". I don't need to. That isn't my role or purpose here, BUT, even if that is what you think I'm doing, it is of no business of yours to tell me who or who not to defend. I think that was uncalled for and, unless I'm mistaken, you are not a moderator here, so therefore, it would seem to me it would not be your place to tell people who they should or should not defend on this forum.

I have a lot, and I do mean a lot, to say to DocGP and will be expressing my comments to him when I return home. In the mean time, I stand by my comments about DocGP motives being suspect. He is zeroing in on every little thing he can find to discredit Dr. Jernigan. There's a difference between asking questions about the protocol and making the kind of comments he's making under the guise of being "concerned" about Lisa being "contaminated" with natural medicines from Dr. Jernigan. My gosh, where did that come from? What is the basis of suggesting to Lisa that maybe she's being contaminated with his remedies?

It's laughable, especially considering that DocGP almost had his colon ruined from a FDA approved drug (abx). It's laughable when you consider the almost monthly recalls of FDA approved medicines that have been recalled due to contamination. What about the millions of people's who's tendons have been damaged from FDA approved Fluoroquinolone Antimicrobial Drugs? What about the thousands, if not millions of people who have been harmed or died from taking FDA approved drugs? If you go back and read his posts carefully it's pretty obvious he has an agenda, and his agenda is to plant seeds of doubt and try to discredit Dr. Jernigan as much as he possibly can, in mostly subtle (and not so subtle) ways.

I appreciate and respect the scientific curiosity that you have expressed about various topics on this forum, but your approach to asking questions about specific protocols or treatments that Dr. Jernigan seem far more sincere and without all the negative comments added to them like DocGP makes. Although (if I remember correctly), you did say something along the line that his "approach to treating Lyme disease scares you". I believe it was you who made a comment like that, am I right? That's perfectly fine to express your fear regarding his treatment approach, but why don't you add to that and tell us WHY it scares you rather than just throw out a comment like that? Being the scientist that you are, I'd be curious to know what scares you about his approach? Have you read his book, "Beating Lyme Disease" entirely? If so, what part of his treatment "scares" you? If you haven't read his book, then I don't see how you could make a comment like that without having the facts to back it up. I assume you did read the book or your wouldn't have said that.

Anyway, our flight leaves soon and we need to leave the hotel in a few minutes. As I said, I have plenty more to say, however it will mostly be related to DocGP's comments regarding Dr. Jernigan and the Hansa Center. By the way, you said you'd like to hear from people who didn't get better using the Jernigan protocol. There are people who have gone to the HC and didn't get well. Dr. Jernigan tells people right from the start that he makes no promises to make anyone well. He does his very best, and works extremely hard during the two week protocol (if you go to his clinic), but there are a few people, for whatever reason, who leave his clinic and not get better. If he was able to make every single patient better he'd be a miracle worker, but he's the first to admit that there are some people who leave his office with little to no improvement.

I have talked to two people on another forum who said they didn't get better on his protocol, and while they admit they didn't get better, they also said they had the utmost respect for Dr. Jernigan and appreciate the effort he made trying to help them get better. By the way, both of these people have tried conventional, and unconventional, approaches (including herbal remedies) and they are both still very sick with Lyme disease. Who can explain why some people get better and some don't? Why did I get sicker on abx and I got better on the Jernigan protocol (going to his clinic)? Why do some people get better using abx and some don't? Why do some people who have done every protocol under the sun and never get better? The truth is though, thousands of people have walked out of the HC better than they went in. I was dying last December, at the end of January I was coming back to life and continue to do so taking Dr. Jernigan's remedies, etc.

It would seem to me that DocGP could make better use of his time helping us to educate other doctors about Lyme disease rather than zeroing in on Dr. Jernigan and trying to find fault or areas of disagreement with his protocol. Why bother? If he isn't going to go there for treatment, then what's the use of coming on this forum and making negative comments day after day while expressing his doubts and concerns about the protocol? He ought to be spending his time helping us fight against the people who are doing us REAL harm, like the IDSA for example. Dr. Jernigan is doing a wonderful job treating thousands of people with lyme and other chronic diseases, why should DocGP care about what Dr. J's approach is? Why doesn't he care more about the stupid guidelines that are put out by IDSA and address the harm they have done to millions of Lyme sufferers?

More harm has been done to Lyme patients from conventional medicine than could ever possibly be done from those who have been treated with natural medicine and therapies. Of course, no protocol is 100% perfect, and certainly many of the natural protocols have done harm to some people. No one would dispute that, but when compared to the thousands of people on lyme forums who complain about the miserable side effects (or herx's) they have from conventional medicine, it's just plain silly that DocGP is more "worried" and "concerned" about one person on this forum who's had some discomfort since being treated at the HC. We don't yet know the full story on Lisa yet, so let's wait and see what the final outcome is before making asinine comments like he made about Jernigan's remedies possibly be contaminated. It's just so pathetic, and in my opinion, it's abundantly clear to me that DocGP has an agenda to discredit Dr. Jernigan with the many comments he's made on this forum about him.

Anyway, time for me to go. I'm sure I'll get an earful when I open my laptop up tonight to read the responses from you and DocGP. I look forward to it. In the mean time, I encourage you (and Doc) to read Dr. Jernigan's book, his articles, blog and website and learn more about his treatment philosophy. After you do that, then come back and tell me why you are "scared" of his treatment approach. But, please, let's agree to this, I won't tell you to refrain from expressing yourself "strenuously" about any subject you care to express, or any question you care to ask, so please don't ask me to refrain from doing so either. Let the moderator decide what we should and should not refrain from doing. If my suspicions about DocGP's motives bother you, that's fine, I respect that, but that's my opinion and there's enough comments made by him on various threads to justify me feeling this way.

More to come later. Again, I sincerely do appreciate your prayers. I also learn a lot from your posts and appreciate you asking questions based on your scientific background. We can all learn from one another, but we need to respect one another's right to express what we want, and how we want, as long as aren't demeaning one another and being disrespectful to each other, or telling them what they should or should not say. If DocGP wants to continue to be negative about Dr. J and his clinic, that's his right, but it just reinforces that he has an agenda and it doesn't seem to be very constructive to this forum.

Forgive all my grammar and punctuation errors. No time to proof this. Gotta run. You all continue to be in my prayers and I thank everyone who has prayed for me. In addition to Dr. J's protocol, I sincerely believe God's supernatural touch has helped me to get better too. No scientific evidence to back that up, but I believe it with all my heart. : )

God bless!

Gary

JoAnn, thanks for the support. Honestly, I am concerned about Gary's vigor. I am expecting a walloping when he gets the chance. ANY scientist would be open to scientific critique. That's how we prove to one another that what we say is true. We do research which can be replicated. I have no doubt that Dr. J has the most passionate supporters around. But, without data, the passion is potentially unfounded. I say "potentially unfounded" because perhaps the data could be generated if studies were actually done. Perhaps Dr. J doesn't have the time to do them, or doesn't have funding or can't find an IRB to approve his studies. I don't know. As JoAnn says, she thinks he would be fine with me asking questions of his methodologies. Gary, you said he was fine with you asking them in his office. If he would answer these questions in the forum or in a paper or even in an e-mail to me, that would be great. There is nothing wrong with asking questions of very curious (and in his book, scientifically inflammatory (not based in science) statements. It does not mean I have an agenda other than my stated...to ensure no harm comes to patients in our group quest for the cure for Lyme.

When JoAnn asked Gary not to be so strenuous, I think she was getting the sense that I have...that Dr. J's supporters are zealots, who will defend him with every fiber of their being, even if there is no scientific data to support the methodologies. I am frankly amazed by the level of passion. But, I am concerned it is more the passion that a charismatic individual can garner rather the passion that a scientist can garner. Last night I read Case #3 on page 288: The power of mind over illness. All of my concerns over Dr. J's methods came crashing down on me when I read this. This woman, his patient, after % years was 75-100% better. She asked for a repeat Lyme test, and he didn't want her to have it, but she did anyway. Her test was still positive, which he expected. She was crushed emotionally, and all of the symptoms came back. He had to counsel her extensively until she felt better again. That sounds like classic faith healing, or mind over matter or placebo effect. Whatever you want to call it, it seems that if the patient really believes they are well, then they are well. And, in this lady's case, when the test said she was still sick, all of a sudden, she felt all the symptoms she had when she believed she was sick, and was sick, 5 years before. He says he doesn't cure...just makes people feel better. And, that's great. But, he says he makes them feel better by optimizing health and helping the immune system to be strong so it can heal the body. But, then he admits that he doesn't portend to cure Lyme and expected her test (and we all know those tests aren't very sensitive) to be positive. This, as a physician, was disturbing to me. JoAnn...as a scientist, what's you opinion.

As I said, Gary, I have no motive or agenda other than ensuring patient safety. However, I get the feeling that you and other Dr. J supporters do have agendas aside from that. If you are simply about supporting his methodologies, please just get me the science to back up the claims (and, no, what's referenced in the book is not enough...I need peer-reviewed literature, especially double blinded studies, in mainstream journals). Have Dr. J answer the question of physicians and scientists. His made up words, which are trademarked, cannot be found on the internet anywhere but at his own sites, and certainly not on PubMed or other science search sites. Otherwise, just concede that this is out of the realm of science and you are all just taking it on faith. And that's totally FINE. But, patients should know that going in. There is certainly more than one way to make someone feel well. But, convincing them with scientific sounding language/answers in a book is misleading, in my opinion.

I do not intend to write any more lengthy messages on the subject, as I feel that Gary and others are responding emotionally and I am simply seeking science. I don't think it's too much to ask. I know the supporters wholeheartedly believe in Dr. J and will take any scientific inquiries from me or others as an affront to this man. That's not the intent, and I hope that others, beside my colleague in science, JoAnn, understand that.

Best of luck to everyone seeking wellness, whatever that means to each of us. All of my good thoughts are with everyone. I will continue to fight the good fight in DC (yes, Gary, as I said before, I am battling against the IDSA), and in the scientific arena. We are not where we need to be and only research will get us there.

Thanks everyone and hang in there.

I agree, CajunLady. All I want to talk about is boring, emotionless, science :)

Hey Gary,

I don't think nasalady meant anything bad by her post. We all have Lyme and it affects our brain, emotions, etc. We all need to learn to take things with a grain of salt...including me. We definitely enjoy your posts here and we've all learned so much. We all need each other.

Hi all,

Just wanted to say that I just read Case #3 which is almost 4 pages long (or I would type it out) and that DocGP totally twisted it around.   He only took a portion of those 4 pages, he did not write about how Ms. S. became well.   The reason Dr. J. even put that in his book was to show how other's can influence another and even do harm do another if that person lets them.  

Nasalady, I also think Gary meant no harm to you..  I think Gary became upset not from your words but another member's words who keeps twisting everything around and only posting the negatives, not the positives which there are plenty!

I became totally well from chronic lyme using Dr. J's "healing at home" protocol and I swear by this doctor..  Now if only Dr. J. would write a book about menopause which I am suffering from (though I am seeing a doctor I do like as far as that but time will tell)... 

Hang in there everyone okay and let's remember to support each other.. 

Denise