HealingWell
Search Close Search
☰

How long is too long?

Support Forums
>
Lyme Disease
✚ New Topic ✚ Reply
❬ ❬ Previous Thread |Next Thread ❭ ❭
Posted 12/11/2010 7:56 PM (GMT 0)

All the research I've been doing has become a blur now-- leaving me with the same burning and unanswered question:  How long is too long? 

In other words:  Starting from day one (the tick bite itself) of being infected with  Lyme B. (no co-infections)  how long, how many months or years of infection does it take-- if you are undiagnosed and untreated with abx--- for the disease to:

A. Become harder to treat?

B. Run the risk of becomming chronic?

C. Become likely to recurr after seemingly successful treatment with abx?  

These are probably 'kettle of fish' questions, the answers being individual to each infected person and their eventual treatment protocol. 

 But it does seem plausible that there would be a time frame of some sort-- a cut off point where an infected, untreated  person either still stands a very good chance of recovering......

......or has unfortunately reached the danger zone where a longer more complex 'fight' against the disease is surely going to be the case.

Using myself as an example, I ESTIMATE (given the onset of  symptoms) that I was infected a year ago and took no antibiotics during that year. 

So....where do I now 'stand' in the ZONE of success or failure at beating Lyme that was untreated for 12 months? 

I just thought I'd throw this time frame thing out to the members in order to gather opinions, anecdotal findings, research estimates or facts -- whatever the case may be. 

And I really wish it were as simple as having my doctor tell me that if I've had Lyme for a year, then I MUST take_____kind of ABX for _____amount of months and at ____mg. dosage,  in order to have the optimum chance of recovery. 

Perhaps only the spirochetes know that answer to that exact formula!  

 

Posted 12/12/2010 1:18 AM (GMT 0)
Hi Cat,

I really don't think that there is a cut-and-dried formula to answer the question. However, I think what you're asking is (a) how long does it take for the spirochetes to leave the bloodstream and begin to penetrate the body tissues, making it more difficult to treat in general, and (b) how long after that might the spirochetes invade the central nervous system, making it very much more difficult to fully recover.

Unfortunately, in most cases the answer to (a) is a couple to a few weeks, from what I've been able to ascertain from literature. With regards to (b), some people don't seem to develop CNS problems with Lyme but CNS involvement can happen very rapidly, even a couple of weeks after the bite.

The following is from this URL: arthritis.webmd.com/tc/lyme-disease-symptoms

Lyme Disease - Symptoms

If Lyme disease is left untreated, it may progress in stages from mild symptoms to serious, long-term disabilities. There are three stages of Lyme disease: early localized, early disseminated, and late persistent.

Stage 1: Early localized infection (1 to 4 weeks)

Some people with Lyme disease have a rash (called erythema migrans) at the site of the tick bite. The rash is usually circular and it gets larger over time. Other people don't have any symptoms in the early stages of Lyme disease and do not remember having had a tick bite. about half the people infected with Lyme disease develop a rash within 1 to 4 weeks.1 See a picture of a Lyme disease rash .

For people who live in areas where Lyme disease most often occurs-in the United States along the Atlantic coast, the Midwest, and parts of Oregon and California-the circular rash can be a sign of Lyme disease, especially when it appears during the summer months.

Some people with Lyme disease will have flu-like symptoms with or without a rash. These symptoms may include:

* Lack of energy, which is the most common symptom.
* Headache and stiff neck.
* Fever and chills.
* Muscle and joint pain.
* Swollen lymph nodes.

In some cases of Lyme disease, the person does not notice any symptoms during this stage.

Stage 2: Early disseminated infection (1 to 4 months)

If Lyme disease is not detected and treated while early symptoms are present, or if you do not have early symptoms that trigger the need for treatment, the infection may affect the skin, joints, nervous system, and heart within weeks to months after the initial infection.

Symptoms at this stage may include:

* Being tired.
* Additional skin rashes in several places on your body that develop as the infection spreads.
* Pain, weakness, or numbness in the arms or legs.
* Inability to control the muscles of the face (paralysis of the facial nerves).
* Recurring headaches or fainting.
* Poor memory and reduced ability to concentrate.
* Conjunctivitis (pinkeye) or sometimes damage to deep tissue in the eyes.
* Occasional rapid heartbeats (palpitations) or, in rare cases, serious heart problems.

Stage 3: Late persistent infections

If Lyme disease is not promptly or effectively treated, damage to the joints, nerves, and brain may develop months or years after you become infected (late Lyme disease). Symptoms at this stage may include:

* Swelling and pain (inflammation) in the joints, especially in the knees.
* Numbness and tingling in the hands, feet, or back.
* Severe fatigue.
* Partial facial nerve paralysis, which usually occurs within the first few months after the tick bite.2
* Neurologic changes, including problems with memory, mood, or sleep, and sometimes problems speaking.
* Chronic Lyme arthritis, which causes recurring episodes of swelling, redness, and fluid buildup in one or more joints that last up to 6 months at a time.

Heart, nervous system, and joint symptoms may be the first signs of Lyme disease in people who did not have a rash or other symptoms of early infection.

I hope this helps!
JoAnn
Posted 12/12/2010 7:01 AM (GMT 0)
Sorry I just have time for a short answer - but it's not the spirochetes.  That's the problem.  It helps to understand a little about the bacteria.  As my Dr says, it's a smart bug that doesn't want to kill its host.

The spirochetes are easy to kill.  There's a good chance of wiping them out if you can catch it in the first few weeks.  Many of us don't even remeber a bullseye rash, so ...

The bacteria has two other life forms it uses when it's under stress - like from your immune system or antibiotics.  Theres an L-form that hides out in your cells, and a cyst form.  That's the problem - you have to wipe out all three life forms - and it takes different abx to do it.

If you don't pretty well wipe out all 3 forms, they can revert to spirochetes that can reproduce.  That's why it's so hard to get rid of this disease once it's entrenched. 

People are used to strep etc which reproduces in less than an hour.  So in ten days of abx, you get to interrupt a ton of repro cycles.  Lyme can be much longer - think some cysts try to revert in 28 days or so.  Four weeks of abx won't do it.

So there is no way to know how long it will take.  Treatment is a marathon and not a sprint.  You might want to think about settling in for the long haul.

Plus the spirochetes can literally bore into any body systems they choose (may be strain dependent?).  That's why there are so many possible symptoms.  And there's no such thing as a typical case of Lyme if you didn't catch it in the first few weeks.

Wish the news were better.  It is possible to improve.

Posted 12/13/2010 7:20 PM (GMT 0)
Agmaar's correct of course.....that's what was missing from my reply. The bacteria do hide in other forms and structures such as cysts and biofilms, and also in nests of fibrin that they create on the walls of your capillaries when they induce hypercoagulation syndrome (as bucci says, "thick blood").

So all of this makes Lyme disease EXTREMELY complicated and difficult to treat. It can become entrenched in your body very very quickly, as Willy experienced.

Sorry to have such a depressing set of answers for you, Cat!
Posted 12/14/2010 3:36 AM (GMT 0)
Knowledge is never depressing, nasalady! :::))))) It's the truth that hurts! LOL ! ( I hope there was humor in there somewhere!)

Great replies all !!! Very informative. Thank you !
Posted 12/16/2010 2:41 PM (GMT 0)
I have been on doxycycline for about 3 weeks maybe a little longer, now i am on alot of other meds like b-12 injections, vit D, cymbalta, trazadone, stomach meds, and without having all them in front of me thats what i can think of now, but when i first started the b-12 injections after about a month i started feeling alot better, then with the Doxycycline i had a really good week, i was thinking ok this is really going to work, i do feel better than i did, but this week has been terrible with the muscles, dizziness, head feeling like it is just floating on my sholders, so now i am wondering was i just having a good week.... or if i still have a long road ahead.
Posted 12/16/2010 6:27 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Justme!
I'm so sorry that you aren't feeling very well lately. It sounds like you might be experiencing a herx reaction.

This will happen any time a large amount of bacteria are killed, as your body needs help detoxing large amounts of die-off. Are you doing any detoxing?

Another reason that you had a good week, then a not-so-good week could also be just from LD's life cycle. Agmaar explains a lot of this quite well in her post above.

It's really hard to know just how long the road to recovery is for any one person, as there are generally complicating factors. A person with Lyme Disease usually has one or more other tick-borne diseases- sometimes along with other health issues.

I hope this helps some!
✚ New Topic ✚ Reply