"Quirky Lyme Disease Bacteria: Unlike Most Organisms, They Don't Need Iron, but Crave Manganese

So what does this mean to the average Lyme patient. Should we try to have low manganese in our systems? How do we do this

Traveler,

Its good to see you back.

I don't want to be the person that rains on the parade, but I have a completely different opinion about this "news." Johns Hopkins is certainly a prestigious world class institution. I live within a 45 minute drive from there. I would now be blind in one eye if I had not had surgery at their hospital a few years ago. I am not willing to throw the baby out with the bath water.

As we all know, Johns Hopkins believes that Lyme is rare, and that it does not exist in the chronic form. They also believe that a short round of antibiotics is sufficient to treat it at any point. They definitely are not a friend of the Lyme community, because they will keep you sick, and then just claim that its all in your head.

One might then ask- what is their apparent concern about finding an effective Lyme Disease treatment? I like to just sit back and observe trends. My opinion is that this supposed interest is not what it appears. It is all about research grants. I guarantee that their theory will never lead to an effective solution to treat Lyme Disease.

Every pathogen requires many different nutrients to survive, and these scientists certainly know that. It is easy and convenient to conduct a "study" to see whether a pathogen is vulnerable if any particular nutrient is withheld from them. Now, the next step is to "map". Each of these studies will always reveal some issue of an inconclusive nature that will endlessly require further studies, i.e additional research grants.

Opugirl already sees the problems of such a rabbit trail. These researchers are smart people, and they already know what the feasibility of their theory is. That doesn't matter to them, though, because their goal is not to treat Lyme disease. It is to generate excitement and hope, and thereby obtain further research grants. At best, their study may culiminate with a patent which they will sell to the pharmaceutical companies to produce a manganese inhibitor, which will be as disappointing as the others such as cell wall inhibitors.

Their approach raises complications beyond the complications already attendant to this disease complex for the patient. Manganese deficiency causes a lot of problems in the body. Is it ever wise to further debilitate the patient in an effort to go after the microbe? My opinion is that this is always a failed approach. Read this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganese_deficiency_%28medicine%29

Traveler, I am not coming down on you for posting this information. In fact, I applaud you because I do not believe in censoring any information, whether we agree with it or not. Its just that I don't think that the same institution that has proven so much longterm hostility to the Lyme community can be counted on to find a "cure" for this disease. Since education is the key, this article serves to inform the Lyme community that they would be advised to look beyond the conventional paradigm for a cure.

For me, the significance of this "study" is that they will do anything for research grants. Call me jaded, but it is easy to see this type of thing from a mile away. It has been going on for years with cancer, and the autoimmune diseases as well. The problem is not one of science, but rather of morality! We need to look beyond the smile and a wink.

Don

Hi All,
I'm sorry but I'm only back in fits and starts right now as I've really got my hands full here. I'm exhausted, family finally all left today and hubby has had a tooth abscess horribly now, so that leaves me to do all the care and milking - as well as feeding the babies 4 times a day right now - by myself. I'm sure things will begin to slow down for me soon....it had better anyway!

The good news is that I came through all of this!! WOOHOO!!

I posted this article not to encourage anyone to try to get and keep Manganese out of their diet, but to show the progress that is being made in the research end of fighting these diseases. It's very important in my view that the scientific community be doing something to help and this only shows that they are continuing to work on this issue - not that this is 'the one thing' that will turn anything around.

Oh, and no one is raining on my parade!! LOL!! I was only sharing information that I had received!

Point well taken, Don! We most definitely need to be aware of where the information we want to follow is coming from!

In following the last link that you posted (www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1473309911700342), the first sentence really threw me! What the heck? Did I miss something? The first part of this sentence (in blue) makes no sense... "Advocacy for Lyme disease has become an increasingly important part of an antiscience movement that denies both the viral cause of AIDS and the benefits of vaccines and that supports unproven (sometimes dangerous) alternative medical treatments."

How have "we" denied the "viral cause of AIDS"?????

Any ideas? I have to admit I've been more than a bit distracted, but.....

Please read the actual paper and not recycled news headlines before making remarks on this research.

scientist27,

First we want to welcome you to the forum. Would you care to tell us a little about yourself and how we might help you?

The caution in your post is well taken. We would love to read the "actual paper". Since you are a "scientist" and have implied that you are familiar with the paper, surely you can provide a link for our convenience? We would also like to know how this research fits in with Dr. Auwaerter's opinion on Lyme Disease and those who have it. Disease de jour? Hmmm, where have I heard that before?

You can probably tell that the research is not my only concern. I am also concerned with the overall perspective that the IDSA, JHU, and Dr. Auwaerter have embraced. Can you offer any insight which may address my concern? I find it interesting that you have joined this forum with no other stated purpose than to defend the integrity of that research study.

Don

Sorry, forgot to post the link!

http://www.jbc.org/content/early/2013/02/02/jbc.M112.433540.full.pdf+html

The article specifically states that Lyme is hard to detect and treat, hence why the study is important. I would think it wouldn't be in the IDSA's best interest to acknowledge this. I trust the study, as to what it means for us, I don't know.

It's ironic that I came across this study in searching for some sort of evidence that Lyme feeds off of sugar. I keep seeing people who say they cut out all sugars including fruits for a special Lyme Diet. I can't find evidence that this is necessary or helpful or that natural unrefined sugars strengthen the Lyme bacteria. The main reason this intrigued me is that I have been drinking "green shakes" to strengthen my immune system, but have been feeling worse and worse, especially for an hour or two after I drink the shake. When I saw the study on Lyme and manganese, I looked up the ingredients in my shake to see what the manganese content is in each. My shake consists mostly of spinach, cashews, and I add a TON of cinnamon. All are high in manganese. I'm wondering if this is what is causing the crash after I drink the shake. I'm wondering if I should look for foods low in manganese or if that would hurt me more since Lyme is feeding off my natural stores as it is. More confused now, but going to stop the shakes at least. From what I've deduced reading this study, my immune system isn't going to help me a whole hell of a lot at this point anyway. Which is AWFUL news, but hopefully the other things I'm doing will.

If anyone has any links that would explain why cutting out all sugars would be helpful, with scientific data, that would be greatly appreciated : ) Oh, and this is my first time posting to this board, so nice to meet ya.

Flyme,

Welcome back! I would like to comment on the issues that you have raised.

The last treatment approach healed my daughter. We also added a lot of green supplements to her diet about a year before that treatment was started. I certainly do not feel that the greens introduced a factor (manganese) that was counterproductive. I am very suspicious of any approach that would seek to withhold an essential mineral from a sick person with the intent of killing the microbe.

Sugars are a different issue. Refined sugars are a no no. I feel that moderate amounts of natural sugars are ok. My daughter has been drinking a large fruit smoothie everyday for the last 4 years and couldn't be healthier. While fruits give a lot of great nutrition, they also give a load of natural sugar. Is this bad? I don't have a strong opinion on fruits either way, as long as the person is getting the proper nutrition.

Its interesting to me that the "Gerson Therapy" uses fresh squeezed organic orange juice and other juices containing sugars in its juicing therapy. Gerson Therapy uses nothing other than nutrients and detoxification to rejuvenate the immune system to eradicate cancer. I can't imagine that any cancer could be eradicated if natural sugars actually suppressed the immune system!

Sugars are not an essential nutrient, because the body can synthesize it from other nutrients. It may actually be helpful to try to eliminate all sugars in the diet. I am not against that like I would be with the manganese-containing foods. As far as the literature is concerned- You will probably not find double blind research studies on this. There may be some physician or patient testimonies however.

I wish you well in your journey of discovery.

Don

thrive,

Thanks for the additional info. Here is my opinion. I have read that whole foods in general are not a problem with regard to a possible overdose of a particular mineral. There is something about the nutrients consisting in a natural balance that tends to prevent overdoses of a specific nutrient from happening. Your greens are probably safe if that assumption is true. Some of the healthiest people that I know are people that eat huge quantities of greens.

The cinnamon may be a different story. It is not a whole food, but is a spice. I add only a quarter of a teaspoon of it to my green shake, which I take twice a day. It has many wonderful properties, but I use it because it is said to prevent parasite eggs from hatching. Heather takes green capsules because she abhors the dead fish odor of my green shake- and she doesn't take cinnamon at all.

It is true that the huge amount of cinnamon could be causing problems because of too much manganese, or it could be something else about the cinnamon that is causing the problem. I read long ago, when I was researching cinnamon to not use more than a teaspoon a day because it can cause irritation of certain parts of the body. Even though it is anti inflammatory- it can actually aggravate stomach ulcers for instance.

If I were you, I would cut down to one half teaspoon of cinnamon per green shake, and see if it helps. If the negative effects go away, then I would not go any higher than 1 teaspoon per shake, and not to exceed 1 teaspoon total per day.

We ought to be able to solve your problem!

Don

Yes, be sure that you are up to that kind of a reaction before doing this 'experiment'. I have used cinnamon every day, all through my treatments on my oatmeal, and never noticed that kind of a reaction, but this is such an individual thing!

I'm looking forward to your results too!

Thanks, Traveler. Good article. And yeah, I was taking the cinnamon to help me for all sorts of things. Also, I absolutely love cinnamon, especially using it in savory recipes. But perhaps with the manganese situation 2 tablespoons is complete overkill. I guess I'll find out. I do know that the reaction I had to these shakes wasn't a herx reaction. My herx is always crushing bone pain and muscle twitches/spasms all throughout my body. These shakes on the other hand made me just CRASH, wiped every ounce of energy out of me, and made me feel a little nauseous. I've also been going downhill since I started them a few months ago.

My gut is telling me that I was just feeding the darn things too much, making them too happy. I want to be clear that I do not at all advocate anyone avoid manganese completely. Or even cinnamon. I'm just trying to figure out why these shakes that I thought would be so good for me (and have helped with my IBS symptoms) are making me feel like dog doo.

Here's one doctor's take on the manganese situation:
Dr. Amy Yasko: " Chronic lyme infection may lead to imbalances in manganese levels in the body, potential causing manganese deficiencies in the body. Supporting manganese which is a mineral that is needed for nerve function represents a bit of a catch 22. It is important to keep manganese in normal range for optimal nerve function, yet at the same time you do not want to supply high levels of a necessary mineral for Borrelia burgdorferi growth. Conversely the possibility exists that Borrelia burgdorferi could cause localized increases in the concentration of manganese in the body; high doses of manganese are toxic, creating Parkinsonian like symptoms."