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Question re Chronic Tonic-to Traveler?

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Posted 10/1/2014 4:52 PM (GMT 0)
You previously mentioned the chronic tonic (p77 on http://www.mistymeadows.org/wendydocs/Lyme%20Disease.pdf) Can you tell me if I whip up a batch of this, what dosage did you take during the day that you did or still find beneficial?

Apologies if this is a repeat question! ~jo
Posted 10/1/2014 9:17 PM (GMT 0)
I'm not Traveler, but I take the chronic tonic, that's any help. She takes a much higher dose, than I do, and I'm afraid to tell you what dose she takes; that's between you and her. If you have any other. questions about the tonic, feel free to ask. Neither of us uses it with the alcohol, but just as a tea. Margaret
Posted 10/1/2014 11:19 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Happyjo,
Please always feel free to send me an email if you have a question that you feel I could be of help with! I'm a very open person.

For the Chronic Tonic, I bought all my own herbs and mixed them in the proportions that it says on the site, but then I take 13 grams of the dry herbs and add them to 4 cups of *just boiled* water - do not boil the herbs! - and allow it to steep for 20 minutes. I make this fresh each day and then drink 1 cup of medicinal tea, 4 times a day.

I used this to clear a 40+ yr Lyme infection back in 2010, got re-infected and am now back on it.

If you start to herx too much, cut back on the tea. I just got done herxing for 3 weeks straight on this and was ready to cut back, but then it let up because I was finally able to catch up to all the toxins that the medicinal tea was creating due to die off of the Lyme bacteria.

I have to do a lot to detoxing while using this medicinal tea, but I refused IV abx twice now and have use this.

Like I said, please ask any questions, I'm very open.
Posted 10/2/2014 12:55 AM (GMT 0)
You have answered my question on the CT. By the way, Traveler, today i boiled three cups of water and steeped three grams of houttuynia, the right dose. ;-)
I got my other herbs, so i am ready to make the chronic tonic.
Posted 10/2/2014 4:06 PM (GMT 0)
As I said in our email - most of them will likely have to come from online - unless you have some exceptional stores in your area!!

And don't worry, HappyJo!! You haven't seen my bad humor in action yet!! turn LOL!!! I'm sure it'll get here soon enough, it's there every time I herx!!
Posted 12/2/2014 1:26 AM (GMT 0)
I just got so excited about chronic tonic that I ordered a bottle right now! Impulse buy. Got it from here : http://www.mistymeadows.org/onlinestore/syrupsTonics/index.htm

So yeah it has alcohol and honey in it-- so is that counterproductive for lyme? I guess I figured if it is made specifically for lyme then it would be okay- is it?

but I would make my own if it was more effective. I make herbal teas form loose herbs all the time- so it is not too hard. Is it more effective to do it with the loose herbs in a tea rather than the tincture from misty meadows? Please clarify- thanks!

And if I follow the recipe from you traveler- how do you measure the am't of herbs to use? IS the tea version stronger than the tincture? Also it seems perhaps more expensive to buy the individual herbs and make it yourself? Do you premix the herbs into a jar and then just make it every morning? feeling inspired by this and hoping to do it- Iwill definitely ask my llmd his thoughts on this herbal combo too. SOunds hopeful.

Teragram- how has the chronic tonic worked for you?

Post Edited (Katebirch) : 12/1/2014 6:33:56 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 12/2/2014 6:13 PM (GMT 0)
I really don't know if there is much difference in the way the Chronic Tonic is made, Kate. I specify which way I made it just in case, as the difference in the way tinctures, decoctions, and teas are made will pull out different qualities of the herbs.

I have not spoken with anyone that has healed using the decoction as written on the Misty Meadows site and until recently, I was the only one that had used the tea as I make it that I was aware of until recently. I believe Teragram had to quit using it due to it being too much for her intestines (has UC type issues so antimicrobials are hard on her), and Elmesanoya is also using it. You can see her accounts on the "Chronic Tonic as used by Trav" thread: www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3244272

I spent about $170 for my herbs, I have made 3 months of the tea and will need to order only one more herb to be another 3 months of treatment. So it's fairly inexpensive in the long run at a little over $56 per month.

I buy "cut" or "cut/sifted" herbs and break or cut up the larger roots and mix batches and keep them in a well sealed container (to keep them fresh) and in the dark (so that sunlight doesn't deteriorate the herbs), and that lasts about 1 month. The rest of the herbs I store in a dark, cool room because there are too many to put in my frig!!!

To be completely honest and open, I wouldn't expect this to work for everyone that tries it - just like all the other protocols out there, but it is one more to try.
Posted 12/2/2014 6:28 PM (GMT 0)
why do you think it wouldn't work for everyone? I know lyme is so weird in that way and if there were one treatment that worked we would know it-- but just wondering why you think this would work for some and not for others? I will talk to the misty meadows people and my llmd about it for sure. And to the two herbalists I am scheduling consults with.
Posted 12/2/2014 7:26 PM (GMT 0)
YOu guys got me wondering.....

For those reading this is what Misty Meadows chronic Tonic is of the site:

Chronic Tonic - 16 fl. Oz. - $34.95
This blend of nervine, adaptogenic, anti-inflammatory, anti-parasitic and immune building herbs is designed to ease the chronic pain and inflammation associated with Lyme Disease and its co-infections. Its use is targeted also toward the neurological and central nervous system issues associated with Lyme Borreliosis in its late or chronic state. Contains filtered water, raw honey, brandy (to preserve), cats claw, red root, teasel root, eleuthero, Japanese knotweed, Echinacea, wild sarsaparilla, st. Johnswort, sweet annie, neem leaf, thyme, oregano
Posted 12/2/2014 7:37 PM (GMT 0)
astroman- what were you wondering? do you mean you were wondering what is in it?
Posted 12/2/2014 8:15 PM (GMT 0)
Katebirch - Yes. Its sounded pretty bazaar - the name. But now I see its mostly common herbs mentioned here.

And also, I'm getting more interested in the herbal approach. I'm not giving up on abx yet, but I will ask the llmd about the herbal approach and what I can add while still on abx.

I might have had a mini herx on cats claw before I started abx.
Posted 12/3/2014 1:03 AM (GMT 0)
Kate, my saying that it won't work for everyone is only based on what I've seen with those treating Lyme - nothing works for everyone. If, at some point in time, I could say that this works for most who try it, I would be shouting it from the rooftops for those with Lyme to at least try it!!!

But, I have no desire to mislead anyone, for any reason. I'm the only one that I know of that has used this and has completely healed from Lyme - and with the addition of just Houttuynia while I was still on the Chronic Tonic, I also healed from Bartonella and had no symptoms for 2 years from either of these infections.
Posted 12/3/2014 1:29 AM (GMT 0)
Traveler I totally understand. You don't want to lead people in one direction just because it worked for you. Lyme is so darn complicated and frustrating in that way.
Still, I am very glad to know of the chronic tonic and do have some hope about it. But I know it is no guarantee. It is odd that no one else has used it that we know of.

Once I have my appointments with the two people who fully cured their lyme with herbs- in a week or two- I will post back here sharing what they used. And of course we all have different presentations of the lyme and coinfections. Ugh.
I am so ready to be totally healthy again!
I wonder what my llmd will say about the chronic tonic. He is very knowledgable about herbal medicine and while he is an MD he uses a lot of herbals in his practice. So I think he will be familiar with the herbs. I See him in about a week so I will also report back about his opinion on it.

Onward.

Also, traveler- curious about your reinfection- how did you know it was a reinfection rather than a relapse- did you get another bite?
Posted 12/3/2014 1:47 AM (GMT 0)
Yeppers! I had a tick attach - while I was in town getting groceries!!! UGH! Not here on my own property that is covered in trees and tall grass, where we have deer, turkey, mice, rabbits and all manner of bugs!

I starting itching in just one spot - just under the bra strap under my left breast....not a good spot to be checking in public, if you know what I mean!

So when I got home, I didn't bother putting groceries away before checking, and sure enough, there was that bugger! He had been attached for about 1 hour, yet the bite site stayed raised, very angry red, and itchy for 3 weeks!

I had no desire, and was actually afraid of having been reinfected, so I used peroxide, put antibiotic ointment on it with a band aid and tried to forget about it, but the symptoms started creeping in.

At first my doc (who is also a MD that uses only herbs) and I thought maybe it was due to my adrenals or my thyroid because of the symptoms, so there was a couple of months of adjusting that medication. Then my doc told me on the third month that she thought maybe I had been reinfected - and had I not been so bull headed (eyes) I would have started on treatment sooner. Live and learn....to use herbs to protect myself from reinfection and if I ever show symptoms again, don't wait!

You would think I would have been on top of this more, but denial and fear are wicked things!!

And to be honest, I wasn't 100% sure that it was a reinfection rather than a relapse, until members here started questioning me and I had to really stop and think things through. But I was completely symptom free for 2 years. During that time, I had 2 diary goats that I cared for and milked by hand and my FIL spend his last 3 months (with Alzheimer's) living in my home with my hubby and I as his only caretakers - extremely stressful!!!

Then before his funeral, my brother kicked my 73 yr old Mom out of his house in Arizona - at least he helped her pack up the moving van! - and send her to live with me in Arkansas! So, I was out finding her an apt that she could afford, then when she got here, she depended on me all too much, which is when I started developing Addison's.

She stayed here for a year, and I had dairy goats to care for, and her, and I had to let the dairy goats go that fall and then the next spring I moved her to Calif to live with her sister. When I got back from that trip, I started seeing my doctor that I see now and had developed Addison's.

Lesson learned for me. blush
Posted 12/3/2014 1:54 AM (GMT 0)
Wow, traveler, that sucks that you got reinfected. And in town getting groceries too- oh wow. I totally get the denial part of it though- I think many of us go through that, Because at first the symptoms can be so subtle it is easy to write onself off as being paranoid. When I first got bit in Sept 2013 I came right to this board and read all the stories but still wasn't convinced I had it- thus only did three weeks or so of abx. Also at that time I did not have a good llmd-- so I was confused about what I should be doing. The llnd I saw told me I could do either a month of 400 mg doxy w- a few other things ( gse, serapeptase) or alteratively do banderol and samento and that would be adequate. I don't think either of those would have been adequate anyway.
But it was 7 months of subtle symptoms before I even got the igenex test- and by then it had gotten pretty bad. So I know just what you mean that even you who are very lyme literate could not go fully into treatment because of those doubts.
I am sorry you got reinfected. What a world this is turning into, sigh. So much to protect ourselves from. I am glad you have lots of good knowledge to heal from this again.

May all of us heal from this!
Posted 12/3/2014 1:58 AM (GMT 0)
Thank you Kate, for your kind words. I remember how scared and in denial you were when you first posted here. I was quite concerned for you, but I also realize that no one can make another person do any treatments. We can only explain the information and try to present it in a convincing way - then hope and pray that the person will be back - and you were!! I was relieved when you started posting again!

Yes, may we all heal from this and may better treatments be found!!!
Posted 12/3/2014 3:32 AM (GMT 0)
Traveler, I've been on the CT from Misty Meadows for about two months now, but haven't increased to two Tbspns yet, just one per day.

Worried I'll never get up to 2 Tbspns. I'm not sure if I'm herxing, or just not getting anywhere due to lots of stress right now.

Or can the CT boost the thyroid? My TSH results were way down at borderline when tested last week and maybe feeling hyper because that's too low for me?

You can PM me if this is getting this thread off topic.

All along I thought I saw houttuynia listed on the label, but thanks astroman--I checked and it isn't. Have some in the cupboard and should add for bart.
Posted 12/3/2014 4:16 AM (GMT 0)
Korissa-- so you don't notice any difference in symptoms from 2 months of the CT?
Posted 12/3/2014 2:57 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Korissa! Thank you for posting!!
We know that stress makes everything worse for us, so do what you can to lower your stress levels. I know that it's not always possible to do so, but do what you can.

So you aren't able to raise your dose? What do they consider to be a "full dose"? What happens to keep you from raising the dose? And how much are you trying to raise it by? You should be only trying to raise it in very small amounts. LOL! Sorry for all the questions, but I'm really curious.

Also, it could be that Bartonella is holding you back, so adding in the Houttuynia could be what you need to do so that you can move forward with your Lyme treatment as well. I was fortunate in that I was able to get up to the full dose of the CT and then add in the Houttuynia.

Do be careful with the Houttuynia though!! Almost everyone that I've talked with that has added it to their meds has herxed pretty hard, so start off slowly with it.

It took me 3 months each time I started the CT the way that I make it (into a tea) to really feel much difference.

Kate, it doesn't sound like she is able to get up to the full dose yet.
Posted 12/4/2014 4:53 AM (GMT 0)
Katebirch, my energy levels are better and headache is not as intense. Anxiety that is not related to emotions is bad though so thinking bart.

My thyroid TSH shows I'm more toward the hyper side now and seriously wonder if maybe my thyroid started working better due to the CT. Today, got letter from MD saying I could reduce dose of thyroid med (after I just refilled the higher dose rx I've been on!!!) My energy could just be higher because I'm getting too much thyroid med.

Houttuynia was the only thing I was using before I started CT and it didn't cause a herx.

Traveler, I have a tendency to ramp up too fast. I started at 1/2 T and after 2 weeks went up to 1 T. The full dose on bottle says 2 T/day.

Kind of afraid of increasing before the holidays.
Posted 12/4/2014 11:43 PM (GMT 0)
I'm so very happy that you are seeing such improvements!! turn

It likely would be a good idea to wait until after the holidays, especially if you have a busy one this year!
Posted 12/4/2014 11:46 PM (GMT 0)
Traveler- do you mix the hottuynia in with the other tea herbs, or make a separate tea? And how many cups of hottuynia do you suggest? Should I start it at the same time as the other stuff?

ah you aready answered this in the other thread about the am'ts and gram scale-- but still wondering is it ok to mix it with the others or is it a separate teA?
Posted 12/4/2014 11:51 PM (GMT 0)
Please understand that I am not a doctor, or herbalist - so my answers are based on my own experience. I would feel a whole bunch better if those wishing to use these herbs were being seen by or at least talking with a qualified herbalist!

Make the teas separately & don't mix them, other than in your stomach (LOL!).

No more than 3 cups of Houttuynia a day when using 3 grams of her to 3 cups of water.

I would suggest that you give yourself plenty of time in between starting each thing. If you should herx badly, you will need to know which thing to stop so that you won't suffer - starting too many things at once will make that almost impossible unless you stop all things. Also be sure to give yourself time to herx - I surely wouldn't want to be herxing from two different things at the same time!! smhair
Posted 12/4/2014 11:52 PM (GMT 0)
Thank you so much, traveler!
Posted 12/5/2014 2:04 AM (GMT 0)
I hope I'm helping!! LOL!
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