Dear Buhner people

Are you taking a 1/2 tsp once a day...instead of splitting your dose to three x a day?

Yes, slowly add in the second one.

What are you treating? Is it lyme? - So, Cat's Claw, and Eleutheros (don't know if there's more in his updated protocol)

Sorry I wasn't clear but it is 1/2 teasp 3 x's a day I am up to.

I am not sure about the co-infections. I "think" it is Bart, but gosh, I am not positive. Headache, sore throat and definitely my heart is involved in this.

I was leaning towards Cat's Claw. I think I have it in tincture and in caps. I like tinctures and will start it out very slow and gentle and work it up to 1/2 teasp before I go to caps.

I am taking Astragalus right now because I have a slight sinus problem and it always helps me with that. I don't have to check for any side effects or allergies with that one.

Thanks again.

PeteZa,

The list that I provided in the post "2.5 years of antibiotics" described what has worked for me. Things really turned a corner when I added the tinctures. The number of capsules required can be difficult to maintain so taking the tinctures is easier. I was able to add the teasel root, cat's claw, Japanese knotweed, and stephania in the same glass. Eleuthero is also available as a tincture, but I have been taking the capsules.

I definitely noticed a Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction when I started taking all of the above. I was also taking 1 capsule each of Serrapeptase and Nattokinase twice a day. In-between I would take Saventaro capsules 2-3 times a day. Artemisinin and Andrograhis were also taken every other day on alternating days. I discontinued the Andrographis due to the side-effects it had on taste and salivation. It was effective, but the side-effect was too concerning. Fortunately, this resolved in several weeks. Artemisinin would be a good choice to add as discussed in other threads. The entire regimen can be hard on the stomach so it does take trial and error, along with adding things one at a time.

Buhner does not advise taking Astragalus for late-stage Lyme since it can supposedly interfere with immune function. Whether or not this occurs is unknown; however, I did not find it to be very effective anyway so I eliminated it.

I recently added Japanese knotweed and Stephania granules supplied by Active Herb - 1 gm of each 2-3 times per day. The advantage is the lower cost -100 gm for $20.00 and the concentrated delivery - 1 gm equals 5 grams of whole herb. They need to be dissolved in hot tea or other beverages. Because they are concentrated they are more potent, which could lead to a stronger Herxheimer rxn. The tinctures are a good way to start since most herbalists use 1-2 parts of herb to 1 part alcohol or glycerol. When you think you are ready the Japanese knotweed and Stephania granules are stronger, and in my case are very effective.

Again, I would emphasize that this will vary from case to case. As a mainstream doc I was aware of alternative therapies such as TCM, but have had my doubts due to the lack of clinical trials. At the same time I was also concerned about high-dose, long-term antibiotic regimens. Buhner is a smart guy and his book contains numerous references to peer reviewed research articles. Buhner's core regimen combined with what is available from TCM sources appear to be onto something substantial in dealing with late-stage Lyme.

In summary, there are other protocols, and companies selling herbals out there. They might be effective as well, but what concerned me was the high cost ($30/oz) that some are charging. The doses from their tinctures (10-30 drops, 3 times a day) are just not high enough to be effective unless a homeopathic mechanism is at work. It makes sense that if a purified pharmaceutic product such as an antibiotic needs to be taken in higher doses for Lyme, then herbal preparations will need to be higher as well. This is because we really do not know what the active ingredients are in the various preparations. You can only guess and titrate upwards gradually to be certain that it is safe and has no serious side-effects.

Kott

I really wish I knew why some, myself included, have such feeble reactions, herx/improvement, to a lot of these herbs, tinctures, when others manage to see such results. Lots of herxing, having to wiggle their way, inch by inch, to max dose. Lots of improvement as well.

A lot goes into healing, I know. Lots of reasons as to why.

It just makes me sad, not knowing. I've tried many things for Lyme and the two main coinfections, just to see. Hardly anything. The most reaction, still inadequate imo for my symptoms, the years I have been infected, was with Cowden's, right when I started being serious about treatment. I've tried going back. Nothing. Nothing from any of them anymore.

Houttuynia, for example, it is regarded as some pretty tough stuff by some of the people here, right? I know I've seen talk of its strength. My Bart just laughs at it. Like, okay, buddy, you can go home now, I'm all giggled out.

Very sad.

Post Edited (NotQuiteAntonio) : 11/13/2015 5:22:55 AM (GMT-7)

Julie McIntyre, Buhner's associate, recommends getting started with all herbs in an intended protocol at low doses and then slowly increasing them.

Reason being: herbs are synergistic - they enhance the actions of each other

Julie shared some highlights with Mister Mike about Buhner's latest Lyme protocol that will be described in his new book due out later this month (yay!).

He now recommends tincture form of Japanese Knotweed....and Gou Teng instead of Cat's Claw (Gou Teng is a different strain of Cat's Claw). He's also recommending Dan Shen (Salvia Miltiorrhiza) which is also part of his latest Babesia protocol.

And, Buhner strongly advises against any type of heating involved with herbs - he says heating can destroy many of the constituents.

He also has certain companies/herbalists that he recommends (and he has no financial ties to any of them). He is quite adamant that herb quality and preparation methods can vary too much and impact the effectiveness of the herbs.

Before I learned much of what I just shared, I bought Cat's Claw and Japanese Knotweed caps from Green Dragon Botanicals.

I did as PeteZa is doing with the JK....titrating the tincture until I got up to capsule dose. I then took both capsules and tinctures...and will continue to do so until I run out of capsules and will then just do tinctures.

Buhner writes that tinctures are the most potent medicinal form of the herbs he recommends.

And, Antonio - how much time did you give on each method of treatment? Did you follow the protocols as designed? I think these are relevant factors to anyone's journey.

Also, I've experienced quite the difference with different herbal preparations of Houttuynia. I was able to titrate up to the full 30-drop BID dose of Nutramedix brand rather quickly.

Montana Farmacy's brand caused me to herx (I slowly transitioned to that from Nutramedix)....and I only got up to 10 drops before realizing I should have been taking a different type of preparation (fresh not dried herb)

Once I read Buhner's recommendation for fresh herb Houttuynia, I ordered it from Woodland Essence and am now slowly transitioning from MF's brand to WE's.

The best way to save money is to make your own tinctures and I am finally taking that step. Everything is on order and some of it has arrived. I will be making 6 months' worth of tinctures for what 1 month's worth costs ready-made.....and that includes amortizing the cost of the Ball Jars and tincture bottles.

What is the #1 brand of JKW and cat's claw, may I ask? I will be ordering it this weekend - Thanks!

PeteZa said...
I am up to 1/2 teasp. of Japanese Knotweed and doing well. So what do I add next and do I gently do it?
I started with Knotweed at 2 drops and got to 1/2 teasp in a week, just for reference.

Thanks in advance for the help. I am sure I have whatever I need in my cabinet, just need to know which one next.

While Japanese Knotweed has antimicrobial properties, they are not as significant as its anti-inflammatory properties.

That said, if you start with Cat's Claw next, you'd want to titrate that a bit more slowly only because it's quite effective against Lyme (= possibility of herxing)

Eleuthero would be good to start next since it helps with immune function and energy.

NotQuiteAntonio,

The chest issues are the number one priority right now. If you are having chest pains, shortness of breath, palpitations or other symptoms you need to see your PCP. Have you had a recent EKG? Referral to a cardiologist may be necessary. Due to the severity of your illness a FP doc may not be sufficient. An internist may be more helpful in managing your overall condition.

Getting to the root of why the various treatments have not worked to reduce your symptoms will require a very good LLMD. Combination therapy with antibiotics and herbal adjuncts may be needed. IV antibiotics, or Bicillin IM may be helpful to augment the action of herbal preparations. In the meantime, if you are feeling as bad as you describe, especially if it is a potential heart problem, then you need immediate evaluation by your PCP or cardiologist.

Part of the reason why there is so much controversy with late-stage Lyme is due to some of the more extreme viewpoints held by both sides. They just wind up antagonizing one another so nothing is ever accomplished. Many mainstream docs generally accept that probiotics, some herbal supplements, and acupuncture have their merits. With difficult cases such as yours even an LLMD could be overwhelmed to find a solution. Remember, all treatments for late-stage Lyme are considered experimental. That being said you need a team approach from a PCP, specialist if needed, and the LLMD.

This can be costly if not covered by insurance or if you have a high deductible. Many of the treatments proposed by members on this board are not covered by insurance. The further it drifts from mainstream practice the less likely it will be covered. With so much advice freely available it can be very confusing. The various advice and consultations from a LLMD and various specialists can be taken under advisement by your PCM.

I hope this helps in crafting a plan that can start to improve your quality of life.


Kott

Couple of points to add.

Temperature effect on herbal preparations is always something to keep in mind. However, an herbal tea usually uses hot water for brewing. Can it destroy some compounds? Possibly, but then again it is hard to know how high the temperatures got when the herbs were dried. It is an interesting variable, but not one that should be stressed about too much. The granule preparations dissolve better in hot, not boiling water, and still are very effective.

Synergy between active compounds is important. Think Augmentin, which contains the antibiotic amoxicillin and the augmenting agent of clavulanic acid. Herbals can help the antibiotics in the same manner. That being said it is important to have the full complement of supplements on board, but only after carefully seeing if there are interactions. Titrating upwards with one preparation, i.e. a few drops to ml quantities over several days and then adding another agent is better to determine if there are side-effects. If multiple agents are started at once and side-effects occur with increasing doses, then it will be impossible to know which one is responsible. Your only option is to discontinue everything and start all over.

cd3764 said...
And, Buhner strongly advises against any type of heating involved with herbs - he says heating can destroy many of the constituents.

cd3764 - is it okay to heat water first (warm, not hot) and then add the tinctures and leave sit for 5-10 minutes before taking? I read that some (not all) of the alcohol will dissipate.

I'm thinking that it would be okay - as our stomach temperature is warm anyway??

Your thoughts?

I just put my drops in room temp filtered water. None of them taste bad to me. Motherwort tastes like dirt, but I don't gag. Once I did valerian and it smells like dirty socks, actually it smells like sweaty dirty socks.

Is there so much alcohol in the tinctures to even worry about the sugar content? And if you are worried about the sugar, then why put syrup in it? Curious.

Okay now that I am doing the Cat's I am reading up on the Eleuthero. I understand why Traveler said only take it 2 x's a day. Buhner says it interferes with sleep and now he is suggesting Rhodiola for long term instead of.

http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/basics/eleuthero-dosage-clarification/

Gosh what a lot to learn.