LYME Vs CANDIDA UPdate PART #2

here is the link to Part 1 of this thread:

www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3548651

I know there is a better way to post think link so you can just click on it, but I don't know how to - if anyone can help??

The following is info on the Candida skin test that I had done, since many of you inquired:

My Dr said the following: "It is called a P/N test or provocation/neutralization test for Candida. P/N tests are also done for allergies to food or the environment. All we are checking with the test is to see whether your immune system reacts to Candida or not. If it does, then you most likely have a Candida issue within you. Not sure if conventional docs are running this test. Allergists may."

As for Diflucan being used for Lyme, she said the following:
"Diflucan is strictly an antifungal medicine, so in theory no, it does not treat Lyme. That being said, there is a couple of factors that make this confusing:
- Lyme and Candida symptoms can be very similar
- When you treat Candida, you give a big relief to your immune system, that can now take care of Lyme and other infections. So you get Candida out of the way for your immune system to do what it needs to do".

This is sort of what Lymepickle said. So in my case there are two possibilities - I am only dealing with Candida, or, whatever Lyme I have left is being taken care of by my immune system now that I am actively treating Candida.

Last week, I got SOO sick. A regular old sickness, but it was aweful. Everything was inflamed, my throat hurt, I had a fever, etc. I waited it out 3 days and kept getting worse, so I gave in to the Zpack. Didn't herx at all, and I am all better now. So because i had no reaction to the antibiotic, I really strongly believe Lyme is not the issue here. I have been herxing while on Diflucan though!! Since Christmas is here I want to enjoy the food and festivities, but I have no choice now but to do a strict 3 month anti-candida diet and protocol. I need to irradicate this!!!

Sorry I took so long to continue this thread, but I was really sick and I had alot on my shoulders with the coming of Christmas week. It's all calm now. Gonna bake some cookies with my kids and finish wrapping presents Today!!

Merry Christmas to you all !!!

Post Edited By Moderator (Mister Mike) : 12/24/2015 6:13:08 AM (GMT-7)

I think you are on to something. I have had a horrible chronic sinus problem since starting my Lyme antibiotics. Anyway, My ENT started me on a nebulizer with compounded Flucozinole (Diflucan) for a fungal sinus infection. I'm supposed to do it for a month. Some of the medicine drips down my throat, so I know I am getting into my system.

OMG, I have felt amazing and my tingling is vastly reduced in my feet. I played tennis yesterday and had no real herx. I usually have a horrible afternoon after any exercise. I, too, am wondering if it's really Candida causing some of my major symptoms, not Lyme. I am going to see if my Lyme doc will prescribe some to me once I am done with this nebulizer. How long does one stay on the anti fungal and at what dose to really kick it!

Mr Mike - thank you so much for fixing the threads!

Yes, unfortunately we both have to deal with this! I do not have a protocol all figured out yet. Between the suggestions my Dr sent, the forum threads, and some of my own research, I will be developing one next week over Christmas break. I will be more than willing to share it with you!! All I know is, I have to be 101% perfect with my diet, in order to allow for the yeast to die off. I have been cheating on and off and that HAS to stop!! It is SO hard not to have a beer or a glass of wine with my husband when we go out on a date, SO hard not to eat some of the cookies that I baked with my kids for Christmas.....etc. So as of DEC 26th - no more sugars, alcohol, whatever else, I have to research and make sure I avoid everything - I can't remember if dairy needs to be avoided too, or only with lyme.

And CD - as MR Mike suggested, yes, I do need to do something for immune support. My Dr suggested that to me as well. She said, "it sounds like you are very susceptible to getting run down easily". Well that is for sure if every couple of days I stay up til 1am, get up at 6am, and go go go all day!!!

And CD you are totally correct, taking one dose of abx damages the immune system. So believe me, it was an absolute dilemma for me as to whether or not to take the zpack. I felt like I was only going to pull myself back even further by doing so, since I will only make it so much harder to recover from the Candida. But if I tell you, I've been sick too many times in my life - I knew if I didnt take the Zpack I would not have been OK for Christmas.

So my goal at this point is, to boost my immune system, beat candida, and then I think I will be ok. My New Year's Resolution is to concentrate on my health - I neglected it this year because I was too busy doing other things. That has to change, bc I have Long Island Half Marathon to run in May!!!

I'll email it now :)

I just started my x-mas diet today.

Had, x-mas cookies, some cheese, margarita, and beer(s).

Tomorrow : repeat

Sorry!!! I remember what it was like. I'll have to go on the cardboard diet next week : )

Hi Chapelle!-

Long story short, I got diagnosed with overgrowth of Candida several months before I tested positive for Lyme. (Although, pretty sure I went 27 years of having Lyme and co-infections.)

I bought the book titled "The Yeast Connection A Medical Breakthrough " by William G. Crook.

I would love to say that I read the book, but I was too sick at the time. I was only able to read and bookmark the pages of what to eat and what to avoid.

You might want to look into this book.

Merry Christmas!:)

LEAH - thanks for the diet info!! appreciate it!!

I was on nystatin 2 tabs twice a day.

Little bear - thank you!!

mpost - thanks for your input, but i dont agree with you. If you say that Candida is not a diagnosis - then as a child, who took loads of antibiotics without probiotics, you are saying candida cant overgrow bc of that reason alone? I didnt have any other conditions. But i do remember I always had a white tongue, and had gastric issues, and when I got older, was diagnosed with endometriosis (huge link btwn candida and endo). I did not get lyme til 2013 - and that's when candida became far worse. So in my case, I strongly believe I had candida, then got lyme, got super sick bc i already had candida, so my immune system was already weak - but then I beat lyme, but now still have candida bc i was on antibiotics for 8 months.

also, as I said in part 1 of the thread, you will find many links to many different discoveries and opinions of things, but I dont think it is proof enough that it is true.

So the people who say diflucan treats lyme......Lets say for example these people tested out diflucan. What if they are missiing out on the fact that the person they are testing actually has candida, the diflucan treats the candida, and the person's immune system then fights the lyme? I dont think there is enough evidence proving that diflucan can fight against lyme. I am not yet convinced of that. If there is more proof to that point, I am all ears.

mpost - please dont take my response the wrong way, I am just stating my opinion!

Post Edited (Chapelle) : 12/25/2015 5:37:45 PM (GMT-7)

Chapelle said...

mpost - thanks for your input, but i dont agree with you. If you say that Candida is not a diagnosis - then as a child, who took loads of antibiotics without probiotics, you are saying candida cant overgrow bc of that reason alone? I didnt have any other conditions.

Sure, and besides killing good bacteria antibiotics are also immune suppressive. I've just said that if your immune system does not work well for some reason then you can get Candida out of control. If you have taken months/years of antibiotics as a child that must have surely have had an impact on your flora. However i doubt 7 days of normal dose abx for strep throat can give healthy people severe candida overgrowth, if that were the case the world would have stopped eating pizza and pasta a long time ago because their gut will not tolerate it because Candida.

Chapelle said...

But i do remember I always had a white tongue, and had gastric issues, and when I got older, was diagnosed with endometriosis (huge link btwn candida and endo).

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying you've had no issues because of Candida, i just doubt Candida was the cause. White tongue is not on its own a Candida overgrowth symptom, the tongue normally does have some white tissue (dead cells, yes Candida too, etc..) this is how the wikipedia page for Tongue looks like: /en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongue.

I am saying this because i've kept on staring at my tongue in the window for more than one year, daily, constantly checking how white it is, bombarding it with nystatin, diflucan, coconut oil, all sorts of anti-Candida herbal cocktails, non-alcoholic mouth wash with antifungal compounds like cetylpyridinium chloride..... No change ! Then i stopped worrying, my gut got much better with the lyme treatment but my tongue remained exactly the same...a bit white...

"Among Candida species, C. albicans, which is a normal constituent of the human flora, a commensal of the skin and the gastrointestinal and genitourinary tracts ..."
/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candida_%28fungus%29

So it was always there and will ever be, can't get rid of it, maybe it even plays a benign role in my gut, in small amounts of course, who knows...

Chapelle said...

I did not get lyme til 2013 - and that's when candida became far worse. So in my case, I strongly believe I had candida, then got lyme, got super sick bc i already had candida, so my immune system was already weak - but then I beat lyme, but now still have candida bc i was on antibiotics for 8 months.

Sure, if you already had some gut imbalance before lyme, it just got worse, absolutely.

Chapelle said...

So the people who say diflucan treats lyme......Lets say for example these people tested out diflucan. What if they are missiing out on the fact that the person they are testing actually has candida, the diflucan treats the candida, and the person's immune system then fights the lyme? I dont think there is enough evidence proving that diflucan can fight against lyme. I am not yet convinced of that. If there is more proof to that point, I am all ears.

I have not said Fluconazole (diflucan) treats lyme, just that it does kill spirochetes. It's a bad idea to take it as a Lyme treatment for long term as it is very toxic to the liver. I mean yes it's good to kill Candida but there are far better (less toxic) options to kill Borrelia than diflucan. Nevertheless, if you take it for Candida and you also have untreated Lyme, it can give you a herx even if Candida is not a problem, and you don't have to trust me for that but Dr Ying Zhang which is one of the lead Lyme researches:

"The maximum blood drug concentrations (Cmax) of several active hits, including 3-formyl rifamycin, oltipraz, and fluconazole, were higher than the MICs of these drug candidates, indicating these drugs are likely to achieve clinically relevant drug concentrations."
www.mdpi.com/2079-6382/4/3/397/htm

So what ? Lots of compounds are active against lyme... This is not the first nor the last.

Chapelle said...

mpost - please dont take my response the wrong way, I am just stating my opinion!

Sure, we are here to help each other and learn new things. I'm very glad we sometimes have different opinion about topics, that helps us share our knowledge.

Post Edited (mpost) : 12/25/2015 7:09:28 PM (GMT-7)

Chapelle... Any chance you'll add the coconut oil... Or MCT oil to your diet? I am taking that every day in my coffee and it seems to keep the yeast under control. I used to have that white stuff on my tongue like you and as I can see how it's gone and my tongue looks normal. Hopefully the same is true for my digestive tract.

No idea if I have chronic candida now... Maybe I do and need a round of diflucan? I'm still convinced I got chronic Bart though. I did read that caprylic acid (C8 fat from coconut oil can kill up to 90% of yeast), that is also part of some anti yeast/ anti-candida kits. Just a suggestion I think it will help! Also I do the intermittent fasting daily now. I fast from supper until lunch that is.

Chapelle, you might want to check this new discussion opened by Traveler. Apparently Diflucan does kill borrelia, new evidence emerging from research:

www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3558199

So funny, Georgia - I was thinking the same thing, you and mpost are alot alike when it comes to your opinions and explanations!! I thank you both for sharing your insight!!

mpost - whoever Dr Zhang is, I read the article, I am still not convinced. MAYBE diflucan could be an anti-persister (cystbuster)......as I said, I don't believe or trust everything I read on the internet....plus it says that "diflucan's role in lyme is still yet to be determined"

interesting on what you did mpost, but I do indeed have a candida issue, and I am doing the diet and the protocol. Almost have it all figured out. I am starting it this week in the New Year! I have nothing to lose except the enjoyment of the foods I love, but to give it ALL up for 3 months and then have it in moderation without having Candida issues will be worth it.

IF I beat Candida, and no longer have any symptoms whatsoever, then I know I no longer have lyme. But if I beat Candida and still have symptoms, then I have to think twice about what I am dealing with. I need to know!!!!

I believe it can. I had candida before I had lyme, didn't do anything to treat it and treated candida and lyme simultaneously. I put lyme into "remission" as they say, first, and then had a major candida problem even more so because of the heavy antibiotics i took for 8 months. So after I beat lyme, I treated candida, and now have it under control, but I know I haven't cleared it completely just yet. Funny as it sounds, I was more successful treating lyme and bartonella than candida.

Chapelle said...
one thing that doesn't sound right - you say your yeast issues seem to improve while on and after lyme antibiotics - maybe the symptoms you think are due to candida are actually due to lyme. That would be the only thing that would make sense if what you are saying is true.

I completely concur. If anything the abx would make the yeast issues worse.