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Can you switch from Cowden to Buhner?

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Posted 1/12/2016 8:11 PM (GMT 0)
So, after totally stressing out trying to decide what to do, I bought the first month of Cowden. It just came yesterday, but I haven't started it (nervous about the herxing).

And now I've been on the internet all day and am reading more posts here and in FB groups, and it seems like people are having more luck with Buhner? Now I'm worried I just wasted all this money.

I guess I'm going to go ahead and try Cowden since I have it and spent money, but can you switch at some point to Buhner? I think I've read of people doing that here, but how do you do it? Just stop where you are and completely start over from day 1 with the other protocol? Im super confused!!!
Posted 1/12/2016 8:18 PM (GMT 0)
Yes, you can switch over to Buhner. But, I do think you will still have to start at low doses and incrementally raise them...because the protocol involves different herbs.
Posted 1/12/2016 8:27 PM (GMT 0)
Don't worry about it. Just try the Cowden since you bought it and you can always switch over later. It is completely different herbs so it's not super easy, but you can always switch to Buhner.
Posted 1/12/2016 8:45 PM (GMT 0)
I switched from month 6 of the full Cowden protocol to Buhner's full Lyme, Babesia and Bartonella protocols.

Month one of Cowden doesn't incorporate as many herbs as what I was taking in month 6. You changing your protocol shouldn't be as involved as what I had to do.

If you tell me just what Cowden products you have right now....and just what you want to do in regards to Buhner's protocols, I'll give you some suggestions.
Posted 1/12/2016 8:50 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks, everyone. Before coming back here, I completely stressed out and bought a bunch of Buhner ones online and his book. I think I must be in panic mode and having a hard time making decisions.

I'll have to take some time to figure out what in the world I'm doing!

A separate question- My doctor had me do a co-infections test a few months ago that came back negative. I know those aren't the most reliable. How do you know which co-infections to treat when that happens? Would it be smart to just treat the lyme and see how it goes and then look at what symptoms are not improving to see if they fit with any co-infections?
Posted 1/12/2016 8:57 PM (GMT 0)
I went from samento to cat's claw tincture without issues. I went from 30 drops twice a day of samento to the same dose of cat's claw. If anything, I found cat's claw gentler than samento, as far as herxing.

I think there's a list of symptoms for each coinfection somewhere...maybe in the 'new to lyme' thread. Offhand...head pressure and air hunger suggest babesia....bone pain suggests bartonella. Taking any of the herbs that treat babesia (sida acuta, cryptolepis or artemisia) and having a babesia herx is pretty definitive. Same with taking houttuynia and having a bartonella herx.
Posted 1/12/2016 9:08 PM (GMT 0)
Well, samento and cat's claw are the same herb, no?

If you get to see a LLMD, they will be able to help you diagnose a co-infection.

Co-infection lists are here:

www.gordonmedical.com/unravelling-complex-chronic-illness/bartonella-like-organisms-blo-consideration-signs-and-symptoms/
www.gordonmedical.com/unravelling-complex-chronic-illness/babesia-like-organisms-bablo-consideration-signs-and-symptoms/
Posted 1/12/2016 10:00 PM (GMT 0)
Holy God I have a lot to learn.
Posted 1/12/2016 10:57 PM (GMT 0)

JSlag said...

A separate question- My doctor had me do a co-infections test a few months ago that came back negative. I know those aren't the most reliable. How do you know which co-infections to treat when that happens? Would it be smart to just treat the lyme and see how it goes and then look at what symptoms are not improving to see if they fit with any co-infections?

Sometimes Dr.'s will treat the co-infections first if the patient seems to have a dominant co-infection.

I was treating lyme first...but had slow progress...and am finally treating bart.
This is based on my slow resolution of only some symptoms, coupled with some of the remaining symptoms pointing to bart.

If I don't get to ...or close to symptom resolution after a decent time spent treating bart, then we'll most likely be looking at Babesia.

So, there is some trial and error.
Posted 1/12/2016 11:25 PM (GMT 0)

Kathie said...
Holy God I have a lot to learn.

I so can remember saying this!! LOL! The best part Kathie is you don't have to remember it all because it is all here, safe and sound and you can come back to it over and over. God bless this website!
Posted 1/13/2016 12:30 AM (GMT 0)
Re: Samento vs. Cat's claw


From Nutramedix website;
"Some of the beneficial properties of Samento are attributed to the pentacyclic oxindole alkaloids (POAs) that are found in the plant that act on the cellular immune system and demonstrate powerful immune system modulating properties. Samento does not contain the tetracyclic oxindole alkaloids (TOAs) that are found in traditional Cat’s Claw. TOAs disrupt central nervous system function and greatly inhibit the effects of the POAs.

Some researchers believe that Samento may be as much as 1,000 times more effective than Cat’s Claw. One difference between Samento and Cat’s Claw is that Cat’s Claw is an immune system stimulant and Samento is an immune system modulator. Also, Samento can be used to treat all autoimmune disorders."

www.nutramedix.ec/ns/samento

But, Buhner prefers the whole herb to be used.
Posted 1/13/2016 12:34 AM (GMT 0)

PeteZa said...

Kathie said...
Holy God I have a lot to learn.

I so can remember saying this!! LOL! The best part Kathie is you don't have to remember it all because it is all here, safe and sound and you can come back to it over and over. God bless this website!


Yes, the learning curve with these infections is insanely steep - it sometimes seemed vertical to me. I felt like I was learning things via the 20/20 hindsight method.

The collective knowledge on this forum is incredible. The number of caring members is extensive.

Ask questions, we'll provide suggestions with links to back them up. I know I speak for many here when I say I'd like all my research to count for something. Much of that research began as a result of links shared on here.

We seem to be more current with things than many LLMD's. I'm sure they're overburdened - look at how long people wait to get in for the first appointment.

It seems we all wind up on some sort of individualized protocol. Step by step will do you just fine.

And, yes Samento is Cat's Claw but it's TOA-free Cat's Claw that has no proven benefits. It's not uncommon to have a different response to different forms of herbs.

When I made the switch, I took 5 drops of "regular" Cat's Claw with 25 drops of Samento (instead of the usual 30 drops Samento). I did that for a few days and then slowly changed the ratio until I was totally on Cat's Claw.

Buhner calls for higher doses than Cowden so that was another titration.

Going low and slow is perfectly fine - you will still heal and can be more comfortable in the process. It might take a little longer but it all works out in the end.
Posted 1/13/2016 12:35 AM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...
Re: Samento vs. Cat's claw


From Nutramedix website;
"Some of the beneficial properties of Samento are attributed to the pentacyclic oxindole alkaloids (POAs) that are found in the plant that act on the cellular immune system and demonstrate powerful immune system modulating properties. Samento does not contain the tetracyclic oxindole alkaloids (TOAs) that are found in traditional Cat’s Claw. TOAs disrupt central nervous system function and greatly inhibit the effects of the POAs.

Some researchers believe that Samento may be as much as 1,000 times more effective than Cat’s Claw. One difference between Samento and Cat’s Claw is that Cat’s Claw is an immune system stimulant and Samento is an immune system modulator. Also, Samento can be used to treat all autoimmune disorders."

www.nutramedix.ec/ns/samento

But, Buhner prefers the whole herb to be used.

And Buhner also says this study is flawed (and not because it was funded by the manufacturer of Samento)
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