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Posted 2/16/2016 7:38 PM (GMT 0)
So, I am coming off of an antibiotic break, and starting the Rifampin and minocycline again.

Dr. J. (well-known, experienced LLMD) pulses all his protocols, including for Bartonella.

M/W/F - for two weeks, then one week off.

I believe the reasoning is it allows your immune system to strengthen during the off times.

My question - How long does it take to kill the bacteria? If the next day you don't take any antibiotics, doesn't the 'almost dead' bacteria come back to life again?
I don't know if I'm explaining my question right.
When you take abx continuously...then you have several days of the antibiotic in full dose in your system..so just wondering how it works when you pulse.

I'm wanting to do the pulse method...but am unsure if it's the right decision.
Posted 2/16/2016 8:03 PM (GMT 0)
DK is also with J you refer to, but relatively new patient so huge improvement yet. That was how it was explained to us. I also believe it is to tease out the stubborn ones too and zap them but I know each infection is different in terms of growth cycles. I'm not aware of the half life of each abx but some are short so I do think you don't have the dose in you on the off days, especially the weekends and certainly on the week off (actually 9 days). I do know DK feels worse on the weeks off and I wonder if others who are pulsing feel more lousy in the off weeks.
Posted 2/16/2016 8:08 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks, yancync for your input.

Rifampin is one of the shorter half-lives antibiotic. But, it is one that Dr. J uses for Bartonella.

I guess i need to just trust the fact that he has healed many...and knows what he is doing.
My LLND doesn't do the pulsing...but I'm feeling the need to change things up a bit...and would rather pulse if it's effective...and give my body a break, as long as it isn't going to render the abx useless after.
Posted 2/16/2016 10:37 PM (GMT 0)
I think I know what you mean ;) We came to J by way of other pediatric parents who said their DKs are doing so much better. It does seem to work for many from what limited info I could find online. DK is being treated for LD and Babs and doesn't seem to have Bart (yet anyway).

DKs there start and mainly use oral abx though from what I understand. They said it's slow enough growing that they've found pulsing works well. I have to say DK had horrid symptoms while on 1 month straight of doxy. This strategy, even while including more and different abx, seems much gentler on his herxing/symptoms. He still sleeps in but only missed a day of school a month these past 2 months, both in the weeks off abx. They try to keep them from missing school if it seems in the realm of possibilities which so far it does for our DK. I like that approach and they did warn us it's slow and steady and there's no rushing it because it's entrenched at this point.

As you mentioned, I do know they are big on working to strengthen the immune system to take over once the pathogen loads are lower, and J's previous work with a different illness influences the tick/Lyme strategies too. Good luck - I hope switching it up works for you.
Posted 2/16/2016 10:58 PM (GMT 0)
Girlie as you know I'm currently on Rifampin daily. Half life is 3.5 hours give or take an hour so it basically loses its effectiveness after 12 hours. My understanding is because Bartonella is a slow growing organism you don't need to take something daily its overkill and the bugs can hide if the environment is toxic to them hence one of the reasons for pulsing. The other thing you are neglecting to mention is your immune system. It can and will kill the bugs just not entirely if you have a chronic infection.

Think of the strep bacteria it has a growth cycle of 12 hours and is actively in your blood the entire time its alive. They typically give you abx for 10 days which keeps the medication in your system for 20 life cycles more than enough to eradicate it. If you apply this same logic to a slower growing organism whether you're taking daily or pulsing, for a bug lifecycle of 7 days it'll take 20 weeks to get the same number of lifecycles with abx present.

This is in part why treating these bugs is a marathon and not a sprint ;o)
Posted 2/18/2016 5:50 AM (GMT 0)
Rooting for you girlie.. half life of tini is 12-14 hrs..depends on liver and methelation too...heard they are more succeptable as spirochettes. .?
Posted 2/18/2016 7:34 AM (GMT 0)
I've got mixed feelings about pulsing the Rifampin.
There seems to be mixed information about whether or not Bartonella can develop resistance with pulsing...

I have communicated with one person who did pulse the Rifampin when being treated by Dr. J...but he wasn't on the protocol for very long.

And, I read a person's blog about Dr. J. adding bactrim for bart to a pulsed protocol.

I don't know if I've seen enough information about pulsing the Rifampin to feel comfortable doing it.


thanks everyone for your input.
Posted 2/18/2016 3:22 PM (GMT 0)
Ya Girlie. I'm not sure about pulsing rifampin. To be honest I think it's not a drug that is to be pulsed, it in itself is actually an anti-persister drug meaning it is the one that kills the bacteria left over. I read some articles that increasing the dose kills more of the germs, faster, and with less likely hood of a relapse. (In TB that is)

But I was reading in leprosie. One dose of 600 mg per month kills 99.9% of the leprosie!!! So all they have is once monthly dosing!

Also there is something on MWF pulsing for tuberculosis where the patient just takes rifampin on MWF 600 mg.

Girlie I think you are in the same position with whatever remaining organism... Bartonella (30+ strains)... BLO (bartonella like organism), Mycoplasma heme infection, or Brucella. Whatever it is.

You are concerned maybe you have babesia... I have no babesia symptoms and no babesia herx when taking cryptolepis. Babesia herxes are supposed to be the most brutal out of all the organisms as they are large protozoans. Maybe do a trial? I doubt I have babesia and did CSA blend with no response.

My case is chronic Bart and I'm 100% sure I researched like the whole internet.

I might have to do what you do. If I don't get better with the rifabutin I will just pulse like 2 weeks on 1 week off. I do like Doctor Js method of strengthening the immune system. Each time it's almost like a vaccination. Some vaccines require like 3 shots right?
Posted 2/18/2016 3:56 PM (GMT 0)
Girlie - I have not tried rifampin yet, so I can't comment on pulsing. I do know that Dr. H looks to recommend plaquenil with rifampin a lot. Here's a link to the slide that shows his combos for Bart:
lymewhisperer.com/2015/12/13/kripalu-closing-in-on-the-8/

Have you taken crypto? Any reaction?

I am on my second month of crypto - actually started with a full dropper and haven't gotten any reaction. I have very little Babesia type symptoms and those I do have can overlap with Bart or Lyme. When I run out I'm not going to buy more.

Have you been tested for mycoplasma?
Posted 2/18/2016 5:30 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks k07 - but Plaquenil is one of the meds I don't really want to take. Not just because of the risk of damage to the eyes...but it's incredibly long half-life.
it's something like 50 days....so if a reaction to it occurs...it will take a very, very long time for it to leave the system.
Posted 2/18/2016 8:55 PM (GMT 0)
K07 -

I have taken Crypto - but didn't notice anything, but was still ramping up - and then stopped the herbs when I stopped the antibiotics .
Maybe I will do a Crypto challenge and see what happens.

I was on doxy for about two months - so that should have taken care of mycoplasma ...I think.
Posted 2/18/2016 9:08 PM (GMT 0)
LP - yah...I keep going back and forth on it..

If I knew for sure that Dr. J does pulse Rifampin regularly...then I would be more inclined to try it. I've read that he does pulse ...but is he usually using Rifampin...or does he usually pulse a combo that uses Bactrim.
I know one person who Dr. J treated using Rifampin or Rifabutin pulsed...so I really shouldn't assume that is a regular occurrence.

I know he talks about using pulsed abx and "drug holidays" for treatment...and I'm assuming that his drug of choice for Bart is Rifampin...?

LP - how about you try it first...then I will follow if it works..lol
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