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Posted 6/24/2016 9:46 PM (GMT 0)
Do you know if Uncaria Rhynchophylla and Sida Acuta interact with abx?
Posted 10/7/2016 3:54 PM (GMT 0)
Getting very lost in my brain fog on this thread. Does all this mean "PERHAPS" my initial 28 days of ABX Doxy was not helping me at all because I was also taking my:

Astragalus
Japanese Knotweed
Cats Claw
Eleuthero tincture
Milk Thistle

I ask since I am now finishing week #6 and even after the 28 days with the ABX COMBINED with these Herbs I feel ZERO relief. But then I also understand it is possibly because I just began treatment 6 weeks ago as well. Reading this is my confused state (I just cut my dose by 50% trying to clear my old brain), I wonder if you are saying the ABX rendered the ABX I took as useless?
Posted 10/7/2016 3:59 PM (GMT 0)
WOW ....I was taking Eulothero (for 14 days of abx)and Cat's claw (first week) ....I wonder that too now. This is all very upsetting to read.
I am taking large doses of herbs now and abx free for 66 days....
Posted 10/7/2016 4:10 PM (GMT 0)
These are cautions...it does not automatically mean your antibiotics are rendered useless.

It could enhance or inhibit them...

I'm kind of on the fence about this one. I stopped my herbs (other than the support ones) for the time-being...but will add them back in on the days I'm not taking abx that could potentially affect them.
It will reduce the interactions.

(I am pulsing abx - M/W/Th/F)
Posted 10/7/2016 4:13 PM (GMT 0)
I wonder if it reduced all the effects of abx I took in july. That makes me mad. It might have too......dang. Because I had that huge herx reaction on week 4 exactly few days I was off Euleuthero because I ran out of it.
Posted 10/7/2016 4:28 PM (GMT 0)
Artermix - I just wanted to let you know that many LLMD's and LLND's prescribe herbals in conjunction with the antibiotics...and people are getting well. We're probably getting over-worried...

My LLND had me take crytolepis with my abx (it's part of the cytochrome P450 group) and I know that Dr. J. has Artemisinin in some of his protocols.
My LLND has gotten many, many people to wellness with his approach...and we know Dr. J. has, too.
Posted 10/7/2016 4:32 PM (GMT 0)
It sounds like yours is way better than mine Girlie. I have all I can afford. I don't think my is a bad one....but he is very antibiotic oriented and I am not. I think he had success with many people with that treatment. But I am too difficult of a patient, literally. Question too much and cannot trust that just because it worked for X,Y,Z it will for me.

I cancelled my appoint...BTW so you know.
Posted 10/7/2016 4:42 PM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...
These are cautions...it does not mean your antibiotics are rendered useless.

It could enhance or inhibit them...

I'm kind of on the fence about this one. I stopped my herbs (other than the support ones) for the time-being...but will add them back in on the days I'm not taking abx that could potentially affect them.
It will reduce the interactions.

(I am pulsing abx - M/W/Th/F)

Thanks, I sure hope it didn't reduce the value of mine. Feel worse if anything. SO much so I reduced my intake yet again in case this is the cause. You say "(I am pulsing abx - M/W/Th/F)" Is PULSING mean you take then stop then take etc? And am I not supposed to take my herbs EVERY single day?
Posted 10/7/2016 4:50 PM (GMT 0)
"Herbs" is a very, very large category. There are a FEW herbs that can interact with pharmaceuticals, but as Girlie pointed out, they may make them more or less effective!!

It's best to take it one herb at a time and one pharmaceutical at a time and look them up. Many people have used both Buhner's and abx to heal successfully.
Posted 10/7/2016 4:59 PM (GMT 0)
Mike - yes - take your herbs everyday. They work best that way.

You aren't even on antibiotics, correct?

I am on Rifampin and it has the potential to interact with Artemisinin, and Cryptolepis.. (cytochrome P450)


Most antibiotics we take for lyme and co's are fine with most herbs we take for lyme and co's. (according to a LLND i spoke with recently)


I wrote down Rifampin and potentially biaxin. ...along with the herbs Artemisinin and Cryptolepis.

I'm thinking I will talk to my LLND about it at next appointment.
It may be that I am over-cautious about it all...but that is my nature.
Posted 10/7/2016 5:04 PM (GMT 0)

artermix said...
It sounds like yours is way better than mine Girlie. I have all I can afford. I don't think my is a bad one....but he is very antibiotic oriented and I am not. I think he had success with many people with that treatment. But I am too difficult of a patient, literally. Question too much and cannot trust that just because it worked for X,Y,Z it will for me.

I cancelled my appoint...BTW so you know.

Artermix - my LLND has a lot of experience - for several years, he was the only LL Dr. in my Province. My complaint has been that he doesn't spend enough time going through the patient notes...and sometimes it seems like he doesn't 'know' me. He will ask me about my fatigue...and that's never been one of my symptoms. I have to admit...I am a very picky person...

I also question a lot. I have bottles in my cupboard that he sent me that I don't want to take. He prescribed some pharmaceuticals...that I didn't want to take either...I'm cautious by nature, along with being picky. It's a bad mix...lol.

You don't need a Dr. to guide you with the herbals...just buy the Buhner books (if you haven't already) and start reading.
Posted 10/7/2016 5:06 PM (GMT 0)

lucynethel (OR Just Mike) said...
Getting very lost in my brain fog on this thread. Does all this mean "PERHAPS" my initial 28 days of ABX Doxy was not helping me at all because I was also taking my:

Astragalus
Japanese Knotweed
Cats Claw
Eleuthero tincture
Milk Thistle

I ask since I am now finishing week #6 and even after the 28 days with the ABX COMBINED with these Herbs I feel ZERO relief. But then I also understand it is possibly because I just began treatment 6 weeks ago as well. Reading this is my confused state (I just cut my dose by 50% trying to clear my old brain), I wonder if you are saying the ABX rendered the ABX I took as useless?

Mike - I'm pretty sure doxy is not on the P450 list.
It doesn't mean it would render them completely useless even if they were on the list. They may enhance or inhibit somewhat...maybe...but as I said I don't recall seeing doxy on the list.

6 weeks is still early in the game...hang in there.
Posted 10/7/2016 5:11 PM (GMT 0)
Here is the table that discusses the medications:



now we just need one for herbs.


medicine.iupui.edu/clinpharm/ddis/main-table/
Posted 10/7/2016 5:33 PM (GMT 0)
OK what is done is done however it was:-) I am on Herbs ONLY and yesterday ordered 1 Pound each of all 3 main herbs from 1st Chinese with FREE shipping and pricing that blew me away, all in Powder formula. I have the 4th item in the protocol from then a couple days ago, that unbearably AWFUL tasting Andrographis. Once I found this seller recommened in the "BOOK" I just went ahead and ordered up all of it in one place.NO tax-NO shipping, best price so just need to figure out which of the powders if any need to be refridgerated to preven oxidizing and my Kefir arrived yesterday and milk is over it as I speak:-) Begin treating for Bart next week when all those herbs arrive as well as the Lyme Protocol since I honestly think it is Bart that has robbed me of the use of both legs? Since I had the rage issues, sobbing issues, all of it by the book as it were, I am just going to try treating for EVERY darned thing and see what happens. I wish they had tested me for coinfections and not just Lyme. But since I DO test positive for Lyme on bands 39 & 41 I just figure go for it on coinfections too.I am REALLY wondering if I got all this from our new, well used cat I got the same week I got the rash? All I read says Bart is often from cats and that first 2 days he clawed and bit Hell outta me. A couple days later the rash so will never know?

PS-if ANYONE knows where to get Sida acuta from anyone other than Woodland, let me know? I can't wait a month!
Posted 10/7/2016 5:33 PM (GMT 0)
here's another list that shows herbals:

www.ebmconsult.com/content/pages/medications-herbs-cytochrome-p450-cyp-enzyme-inhibitors

I do see Cat's Claw on there.
Posted 10/7/2016 5:37 PM (GMT 0)

lucynethel (OR Just Mike) said...
OK what is done is done however it was:-) I am on Herbs ONLY and yesterday ordered 1 Pound each of all 3 main herbs from 1st Chinese with FREE shipping and pricing that blew me away, all in Powder formula. I have the 4th item in the protocol from then a couple days ago, that unbearably AWFUL tasting Andrographis. Once I found this seller recommened in the "BOOK" I just went ahead and ordered up all of it in one place.NO tax-NO shipping, best price so just need to figure out which of the powders if any need to be refridgerated to preven oxidizing and my Kefir arrived yesterday and milk is over it as I speak:-) Begin treating for Bart next week when all those herbs arrive as well as the Lyme Protocol since I honestly think it is Bart that has robbed me of the use of both legs? Since I had the rage issues, sobbing issues, all of it by the book as it were, I am just going to try treating for EVERY darned thing and see what happens. I wish they had tested me for coinfections and not just Lyme. But since I DO test positive for Lyme on bands 39 & 41 I just figure go for it on coinfections too.I am REALLY wondering if I got all this from our new, well used cat I got the same week I got the rash? All I read says Bart is often from cats and that first 2 days he clawed and bit Hell outta me. A couple days later the rash so will never know?

PS-if ANYONE knows where to get Sida acuta from anyone other than Woodland, let me know? I can't wait a month!

You don't want to order from Sage Woman herbs anymore, right?

maybe try Elk Mountain Herbs
or Mountain Rose Herbs
or Horizon Herbs
Posted 10/7/2016 5:41 PM (GMT 0)
That is correct and her price is WAY too high with her $12.50 shipping plus handling. Been extraordinarily RUDE to us 3 times in a row now for no reason whatsoever. Really weird....
Posted 10/7/2016 5:50 PM (GMT 0)
Bartonella is a common co-infection found in ticks, so you can get it from ticks and mosquitoes, not just cats. That's outdated information.
Posted 10/7/2016 6:06 PM (GMT 0)
OK, I also killed over 100 Gophers with cinch traps before I got sick as well. Trouble was the traps never finishes them off & had to finish job with screwdrivers as a weapon so always wondered about transfer of Their being contaminated with "whatever" along with a bunch of rats, mice etc. We had massive construction across the street for 4 years building a huge park and Middle School. During that time every critter on Earth was running everywhere. Odd thing after ALL this we still have wild Coyote's just cruise up & down our streets at will looking for a cat or dog for lunch...Like the wild west here, even still. Makes me not look at my cat with an evil eye now at least.
Posted 10/7/2016 6:07 PM (GMT 0)
Let's try to take the guess work out of this...

first visit: http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DevelopmentApprovalProcess/DevelopmentResources/DrugInteractionsLabeling/ucm093664.htm#table1


My guess here, im no doctor, is that you find (in buhner's book) the matching CYP transponder (Ex. CYP304 is inhibited by Baical Skullcap or Chinese Skullcap) which the herb could be inhibitive of. And make sure any prescription drug you are on (or any thing you take for that matter) is not listed as a strong, moderate, or even weak inhibitor of this transponder.)

Let me know if this makes sense to you all.

Thanks!
Posted 10/7/2016 6:27 PM (GMT 0)

goldengoose said...
Let's try to take the guess work out of this...

first visit: http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DevelopmentApprovalProcess/DevelopmentResources/DrugInteractionsLabeling/ucm093664.htm#table1


My guess here, im no doctor, is that you find (in buhner's book) the matching CYP transponder (Ex. CYP304 is inhibited by Baical Skullcap or Chinese Skullcap) which the herb could be inhibitive of. And make sure any prescription drug you are on (or any thing you take for that matter) is not listed as a strong, moderate, or even weak inhibitor of this transponder.)

Let me know if this makes sense to you all.

Thanks!

Thanks, Goldengoose.....so where do we find a list of all the herbs that could potentially interact? Are you saying Buhner lists them in his books? I don't remember seeing that in the Bartonella book...but I guess I should look again.
Posted 10/7/2016 6:47 PM (GMT 0)
Mustardseed,

Thanks for posting this. I think it's important. I wondered about this too. I am not on abx right now but may go on for Bart. I took Red sage for the first time yesterday and had a horrible reaction. I was exhausted and instantly depressed (not my usual nature and may have released something from the Bart) but then had terrible insomnia. At 3:00am I typed in 'interaction of red sage 'denshen' with valium' (thinking I could take 1 mg. to help me sleep). It said it could greatly increase the effects so wondered when else this happens. This is my overall concern about not knowing a lot about herbs. Good luck everyone.
Posted 10/7/2016 8:38 PM (GMT 0)
Im confused. On his website and book Buhner states that his herbs have no interactions with antibiotics and can be all taken with them. And that the herbs actually make the antibiotics more powerful.
Posted 10/7/2016 8:48 PM (GMT 0)
So, I got that kind of wrong, I asked a knowlegdeable pharmacist about p-450 and CYP's

That list I had above lists drugs and common items that would interfere with the digestion/absorbtion of the drugs you use through the break down of enzymes.

What you need to do is:

1) Look up the drugs you are currently on (Using Medmd, or anything seemingly reputabe on google, use your own judgement carefully) Search the drug name followed by keywords (CYP and/or P-450) and find out what, if any enzymes your drug uses in your body to break down the drugs you are on.

2) Once you have that list check the back of Buhner's book and the web to find out if any of the herbs/supplements interfere with those enzymes. You may even find that you did not know your were taking something else (grapefruit juice interferes with cyp-304 i believe) that interferes with your existing drugs.

3) Research this anytime your LLMD changes your antibiotic as many antibiotics use different enzymes

*these are not words straight from a pharmacist or MD/DR, I am simply trying to put this into understandable language, it may not be perfectly scientifically accurate
Posted 10/7/2016 8:54 PM (GMT 0)
goldengoose - the link I posted - I looked at it again - it has pharma and a section on herbs...is that not good enough - do you think the list might not be complete?
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