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Posted 9/27/2016 5:23 PM (GMT 0)
Many times we talk about using natural medicines (such as the Buhner, Cowen and Zheng protocols) with much caution due to the potential herx that can give in our bodies.
My LLMD never talked about detox and simply addressed the herx as a normal phase of when someone takes abx. I am not saying he is correct.

I started thinking how much we focus on all the detox and the precautions on herbal treatment. I know that many of us are taking herbs on our own so because of this, caution is IMO a very good thing.
But then I started to reflect in how a doctor will prescribe us a massive dose of a Rx (antibiotics or anything else) and we never question that too much, even despite the ample side effects of the pharmaceutical literature. Most of us do not go through detox process with regular medicine (perhaps we should), because it is unheard in medical western practice.
It also got me thinking how people truly abuse their bodies in a life time in many different ways.....for example recreational drugs or alcohol are among those. However it seems in many cases that many folks recover quite well after years of self-abuse. Not all and depending on drugs. How is it different than for any of us to "abuse" our poor body (already taxed by a nasty bacteria) with a herbal treatment that can cause a strong reaction. Wouldn't that be like a heroine addict going through withdrawal?
Help me out here to understand the difference. I am very ignorant in this area.

I am starting to think that perhaps a much more aggressive approach with the herbal treatment would be more effective???
Posted 9/27/2016 5:33 PM (GMT 0)
Start reading about cytokine storms - a good understanding of those will give anyone pause about trying to push through herxing!

Only a few infections cause a herxheimer reaction - like syphilis, Lyme, Bartonella, candida to name a few.

A herx is like a very mild cytokine storm - but if ignored, it can rise to levels that can be very life-threatening (think of an anaphylactic emergency).

So, when starting a large dose for something like, say, bronchitis, you won't herx and have the potential for a cytokine storm - unless you are allergic to the abx.

The herbs used in Buhners, for example, aren't "abusive" to the body - it's just the opposite. The herbs only support body functions, helping the body to operate much more efficiently so that the immune and other systems can begin to help clear/treat the infections.
Posted 9/27/2016 5:37 PM (GMT 0)
So they should not cause herx. They are merely disrupting the bacteria. I mean there is no way to know whatever is a herx or not.
I read about cytokine storms.....LLMD insist body can handle most time.

BTW I am thinking about stopping to go to LLMD. Not forever....just cannot see the point at this moment.
Posted 9/27/2016 5:49 PM (GMT 0)
Well, that LLMD has not been talking to the same people I have been!! I talk with people that have serious issues with detoxing and with those cytokine storms. Some find themselves in the hospital with their airways closing off and truly massive inflammation all over their bodies. It takes large doses of IV benadryl and steroids to put a stop to the inflammation before it affects their heart seriously.

Although I do agree that for most people, they can handle a mild herx, but that's not what I was referring to. I've had serious herxes - and I do mean serious ones, but have not had to go through the life threatening ones fortunately.

We have to do what we have to do - just remember, because one LLMD doesn't seem to be able to help you, doesn't mean that different one will be the same. Or you could try adding in some alternative therapies to see if your body will respond better with more help.

Oh, and I know that I've had a ton of experience with this, but I can tell the difference most times between a herx or an increase in symptoms for another reason by the way my body responds to detoxing, supplements, treatments or whatever. It's not an exact science (unless you want to be a lab rat! LOL!), but we can learn the differences.
Posted 9/27/2016 5:55 PM (GMT 0)
I do not disagree with you. I am just saying that the same principle is applied for everything we take Rx....it is fine for most, but you could be among the ones that has side effects.
Posted 9/27/2016 5:58 PM (GMT 0)
But, side effects are very different from a cytokine storm. I'm allergic to 2 abx that I know of, and they caused me great misery with just one dose - but that was nothing like my herxing with these infections. Every symptom I had was flaring during a serious herx. When I had an allergic reaction, I had hives, shortness of breath at times, nausea and severe diarrhea.
Posted 9/27/2016 6:09 PM (GMT 0)
Wow....but my symptoms of herxing are the same of lyme symptoms seems. I know it is herx when it happens EXACTLY within 60 to 90 min from taking the herbal.
But if I have not taken a thing for 10 hrs over night I wake up feeling all weird that is lyme not herx.
Posted 9/27/2016 6:22 PM (GMT 0)
My pattern is that I will have a mildish herx soon after starting something or raisin my dose at around 4 - 7 days. If I've started a new protocol, I will then have a second, much more serious herx 3 weeks in. But there's no doubt that it's a herx, as detoxing heavily will help bring it under control, where if I don't increase my detoxing (like before I realized this was my standard pattern), then the herxing just continues for around a month or more until my body can finally work the toxins out on it's own - which is why I detox heavily!! A month long herx is hard on me! Especially after my year long herx back when I tried using pharma abx. Now that was one WICKED herx!! After I quit the abx (against the advice of my LLMD), I was left with seizures, severe cognitive issues (couldn't follow patterns, couldn't recognize loved ones and more) and completely bed bound for 3 months, house bound for 2 months after that.
Posted 9/27/2016 6:55 PM (GMT 0)
I think there is some current debate about what exactly we are herxing from. Traditionally we believed our herxes were our body's reaction to the toxin of massive die off.

Now there is the idea that herxes are our body's direct reaction to the substance or activity itself. I disagree whole heartily with that unless someone can prove a herx reaction in someone not believed to be infected in any way.

As traveler indicated, an allergic reaction is not a herx.
Posted 9/27/2016 7:03 PM (GMT 0)
I agree that allergic reaction is different....I am upping my dose today to experiment...I am moving to 3 caps of Uncaria Rhynchiphilla , and double Euleuthero dose as well. I only have little Samento left so I cannot double on that....I am also doubling the cordyceps dose to 1/2 teaspoon.

(picture this major herx ...OD type like in Pulp Fiction)
Posted 9/27/2016 7:24 PM (GMT 0)
I believe symptoms are the result of your body trying to fight it off and a herx is an aggravation of symptoms due to taking a substance that helps fight it.
Posted 9/27/2016 7:34 PM (GMT 0)
My herxes seem to begin a week or so after having a new herb or upping doses.
Posted 9/27/2016 9:06 PM (GMT 0)

evianangel said...
My herxes seem to begin a week or so after having a new herb or upping doses.

Yes mine too. However I'm finding it's also dependent on what the change was (e.g. Healing modality vs herb, vs increasing dose)
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