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**Georgia Hunter** - Nitric oxide question

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Posted 11/9/2016 7:37 PM (GMT 0)
You wrote several times about N O. What was your view point again on how this correlates to muscle tension? - and diet?

I've read that Nitric oxide signals blood vessels to relax during exercise, increasing blood flow.

This interests me due to:
1) my muscular fatigue/stiffness
2) clotting gene (I had surprise a leg clot last year).

I'm also one of those naturally "veiny" people (arms ect) - always have been, even in times of low physical exercise, not so sure thats a good thing. An IV drug users dream though LOL (not me)..

Post Edited (astroman) : 11/9/2016 6:56:05 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 11/10/2016 1:45 AM (GMT 0)
bump
Posted 11/10/2016 5:23 AM (GMT 0)
Astro ..not gh ..but i too have thought about this ...there was a time where my finger stayed flat after pressing it vey twightlight zombie zone ...also id doc said your veins arent getting bigger everthing is getting smaller you have a mitochondrial disease get out ..he was right lol.....it was like slow super slow perfusion..i looked into the n.o. being made by the gut biome ..and also the aldosterone -angio renin system ....how is your blood bressure ..do you have bart ? Do you take calcium supps ? Just curious ..chewing licorice raw root has helped my low bp.....lots of salt too...
on the hyper coagulation ...aspirin onlh make blood slipper . .not thins it..heparin does but only for a few hours ...the bee venom is wonderful and can dissolve clots the inflammation local actually reduces systemic ...sytemic enzymes have helped ..especially lumbro but i only take it the night before i have a killer on board as i believe it breaks up biofilm...
anecdotally my father in law was on crutches scheduled for surgery to pull an vein and repair replace etc ...i studied gave him recommendation of horse chestnut ...he took insane amounts ..surgury cancelled ...

Post Edited (bluelyme) : 11/9/2016 10:31:23 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 11/10/2016 6:05 AM (GMT 0)
bl-

What got me wondering about Nitric Oxide was they know LOW levels of it can cause some of the muscle and tendon issues in some Muscular Dystrophy diseases. Nitric Oxide is a cheap te$t I think, very basic, might be good to do.

My BP is good. There are a couple "clot genes" which make sudden clots more possible even with good BP and correct coagulation rate- its weird. Not on any thinners. I take daily baby aspirin, knowing it prob doesn't do anything. My calcium lev is good. I tried supplementing to see if any effect on muscle - nope.

My muscles get "pumped" easy and kind of stay like that longer than they should. Muscles heads might think thats cool, but it never felt right. Asking a cardio Dr things like that is like talking to a wall, their only concern is high BP and heart attacks LOL.

Bart? I dont know. Was Neg on cheap test.
Posted 11/10/2016 10:20 AM (GMT 0)

astroman said...
You wrote several times about N O. What was your view point again on how this correlates to muscle tension? - and diet?

I've read that Nitric oxide signals blood vessels to relax during exercise, increasing blood flow.

This interests me due to:
1) my muscular fatigue/stiffness
2) clotting gene (I had surprise a leg clot last year).

I'm also one of those naturally "veiny" people (arms ect) - always have been, even in times of low physical exercise, not so sure thats a good thing. An IV drug users dream though LOL (not me)..

Nitric oxide is a gas that only lasts for seconds in the body before it interacts with various target molecules and is inactivated. Relating this to muscle tension or diet is extremely complex and would take some research on my part. What I do know is that to talk about NO, we must talk about its precursor enzymes(proteins) and the differences in them. The biosynthetic enzyme Nitric Oxide Synthase is the precursor to NO and occurs in 3 known forms: eNOS (endothelial nitric oxide synthase), nNOS (neuronal nitric oxide synthase), and iNOS (inducible nitric oxide synthase). nNOS occurs in skeletal muscle as well as neural tissue. The link below can explain it much better than I can.

I have read what I thought was your issue and NO was involved in the pathway, it just wasn't the main player. We all have NO issues due to our infections. We either have too much or we have down regulated our immune response and don't have enough.

Clotting issues at your age are more of an copper issue than genes IMO. Too much or not enough......

Do you have tag moles or a lot of moles on your skin?

www.sciencedirect.com.sci-hub.bz/science/article/pii/S1089860309000366
Posted 11/10/2016 1:46 PM (GMT 0)
I am obviously not GH and I'm not posting about NO ;)

However, based upon your clotting concerns, perhaps you might consider Serrapeptase:

www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2003/9/report_aas/page-01
Posted 11/10/2016 3:11 PM (GMT 0)
Yes, It was a question relating to my two sub-topics. More on how it effects the physical aspects of muscle - this could be useful info to me. I will read the link.

The clotting, I do have positive gene identifiction for from 23/me and the actual "conventional gene testing" which followed, so its not as mysterious as it could be. BUT, Its wierd how that makes it possible to have "sudden clots" when your coagulation rate/ratio can be correct. (I forgot what its realy called). The science behind it is lacking.

I have been taking Serrapeptase every other night lately since its also stated to have some muscle pain relief in some people and is good for injury recovery.
Posted 11/10/2016 3:20 PM (GMT 0)
coagulation rate/ratio - Prothombin time, also known as PT/INR

My hubby has a genetic condition called Factor V (5), which predisposes him to clot very easily. That's why he nearly died 8 years ago and is now permanently disabled. Because of this Factor 5, his blood clots so easily that he must remain on blood thinners for the rest of his life. BUT - there is no tests available specifically for Factor 5, it's the gene test or they may do a screening test for Activated Protein C resistance, and then do the gene testing.
Posted 11/10/2016 3:57 PM (GMT 0)
Trav- Yes thanks PT/INR.

Umm......the gene test is the test for factor 5. Is that what you meant- thats its the only test for it?

I luckely only have one copy of that one, and then another clot gene of lesser evil. But with some gene defects, one copy can still have health effects (just less). At least thats what they told me.

"Activated Protein C resistance" - news to me. This is just a "related identifier"? Will this tell me anything more than what I already know (since I know my copies already)?
Posted 11/10/2016 4:10 PM (GMT 0)
""Activated Protein C resistance" - news to me. This is just a "related identifier"? Will this tell me anything more than what I already know (since I know my copies already)?"

No, I don't believe it will tell you anything that you don't already know.

My hubby has not had any of these tests, but I have found that stoptheclot.org has good information kind of after the fact for my hubby.

Here's the PDF that I got that information from: /www.stoptheclot.org/documents/FactorVLeiden-lw.pdf

Here's what they actually say about testing:
"A blood test (called a screening test) can show if you have Activated Protein C resistance.
If you do, another blood test that examines your genes (called DNA) will be done to find out if Factor V Leiden is the cause of the resistance and what type of Factor V Leiden you have.

Some hospitals do only the DNA test and not the screening test."

As soon as the did an ultra sound on his leg and on his lungs, they just rushed him into surgery for a IVC filter, which actually looks a lot like a minnow trap (lol), and it's placed in the Inferior Vena Cava vein to catch blood clots before they reach his heart (again) and fill his lungs (again). So, he didn't get any testing and it was assumed that he has Factor 5 - but this was 8 years ago, and in my little bitty rural area, we were being told that no testing existed back then - which may have been true.

What we know for sure is another event like that will kill him, so the IVC filter and anti-coagulants are necessary now for the rest of his life.
Posted 11/10/2016 6:44 PM (GMT 0)
Great PDF Factor V info, thanks

That explained it better than anything I've read.

Even though 5 in 100 have one gene copy of it, and 1 in 100 have both copies.

By the age of 40 only 1 in 1000 will get a leg or lung clot. So 999 are lucky and dont even know about this!

Factor V is not related to strokes (the only good news).
Posted 11/10/2016 6:49 PM (GMT 0)
Right. My hubby made it to the age of about 50 before he had his life altering event. It takes years of passing blood clots to get as many as he did according to all of the different doctors that we have talked to.
Posted 11/11/2016 9:47 AM (GMT 0)
There are 13 different clotting factors and numerous intermediate proteins that must be utilized for coagulation to occur. Many of these clotting factors have substrates that activate them (like copper and vitamin K). These substrates are essential for proper clot formation. A large number of people have a genetic issue with one of the clotting factors. The ones of concern are usually seen early in life and the ones that occur later in life occur because of substrate issues, disease, or malnutrition. For instance, Activated C protein for Factor V binds to the protein peptide Arg-Ala-Gly-Met-Gln-Thr-Phe-Leu-Ile or at His-Ala-Gly-Met-Ser-Thr-Leu-Phe-Ile-Val. If you are deficient of one of these amino acids, binding may not occur and the clotting process is disrupted. There are so many factors that affect clotting that my belief is that genes are actually a lesser consequence (for later in life issues.) This is why age increases your chance of having an issue. We become malnourished due to a combination of our diet and our microbiome's needs.

Here are two examples:

Our results indicate that homocysteine rapidly incorporates into factor V and that the prothrombotic tendency in hyperhomocysteinemia may be related to impaired inactivation of factor Va by APC due to homocysteinylation of the cofactor by modification of free cysteine(s).

i.e......homocysteine causes problems with Factor V.

These in vitro results indicate that copper inhibits Activated Protein C activity and that albumin and d-DAHK reverse the copper-induced APC deactivation.

i.e.....copper blocks/decreases activated protein C which prevents factor v from stopping clot formation.

You can't change your genes, but you can change the nutritional status at the cellular level. Active treatment to remove whatever pathogen you have would be warranted IMO. Unless you decrease your pathogen load, copper will continuously be released as an immune response to decrease pathogen growth.

Do you have tag moles or a lot of moles on your skin?
Posted 11/11/2016 4:04 PM (GMT 0)
"Do you have tag moles or a lot of moles on your skin? "

nope

My clot also happened towards the end of what felt like the highest toxic level I've been at - when my candida was highest and was starting to treat it with Rx.

Due to a liver gene, I dont dexox as easily as others (the popular methods hear dont do much for me), thus D-limone helps.

"High pathogen= high copper"..interesting.

Copper - I did have high copper serum once, I'll see what my later copper inner cell value was.

As far as muscle pain and nitric acid- meat increases Nitric oxide? I dont eat much red meat, once every two weeks. , I do eat chicken though. Never noticed muscle sorness changes.

Post Edited (astroman) : 11/11/2016 10:17:16 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 11/11/2016 4:47 PM (GMT 0)
Yeah, my husband doesn't have any tag moles or hardly any moles at all. I think maybe one or two? I have more moles than he does!!
Posted 11/11/2016 5:27 PM (GMT 0)
High pathogen load doesn't necessarily mean a high copper level. Many people with pathogens are low on copper.
Posted 11/11/2016 6:14 PM (GMT 0)
"Unless you decrease your pathogen load, copper will continuously be released as an immune response to decrease pathogen growth."

"High pathogen load doesn't necessarily mean a high copper level. Many people with pathogens are low on copper."


This is confusing.
Posted 11/11/2016 6:22 PM (GMT 0)
Curious about the moles. My daughter has a ton. Has had to have a strange one removed already and has a halo mole on face. They did not develop until she was 4 or 5. How does this relate to nitric oxide?
Posted 11/11/2016 11:48 PM (GMT 0)
Yes my dad has many moles skin tags ...have a buddy with skin cancer so yes i am curious now too...i blame bart for any skin stuff
Posted 11/12/2016 9:47 AM (GMT 0)

astroman said...
"Unless you decrease your pathogen load, copper will continuously be released as an immune response to decrease pathogen growth."

"High pathogen load doesn't necessarily mean a high copper level. Many people with pathogens are low on copper."


This is confusing.

Most of our copper stores are stored in the liver and when the immune system detects pathogens that aren't removed immediately, it releases copper. Copper is concentrated in white blood cells and increases their lethality. During the inflammatory process that triggers copper release, NO is formed. For a constant infection, this happens over and over until the liver stores of copper are depleted. The body still wants to release copper into the blood stream but can't. NO is still being formed by the immune response and although NO is a good thing, it's a bad thing when it occurs over such long periods of time because so much oxidative stress occurs. The body then does everything it can to try to reduce the oxidative stress, it down regulates immune responses, epigenetic shifts occur, and wasting of vital elements/substrates occur to decrease our biological processes.

Early stage infections have too much copper. Late stage infections don't have enough. Supplementing to increase to "normal" levels can be a huge problem because if you've down regulated your systems and you "crank" them back up again, the oxidative stress returns and that is very harmful. There are copper ratio issues as well for intracellular vs extracellular copper.

I ask about tag moles and moles in an attempt to quantify the amount of VEGF he had. I have a couple of thoughts/theories that I was looking into. It's rather complicated and not proven by science yet.
Posted 11/12/2016 4:54 PM (GMT 0)
GH - Thanks for the details on how copper functions in us.

Q) So high copper in blood (basic serum test? ) and high blood nitris oxide are likely to go hand in hand with infection ONLY if your copper levels are not depleted from liver "storage"?

Since it works that way, looks like copper level testing could be mis-leading. ?? I wonder if these is a good testing method.

That said , my copper inner-cell levels (Spectra-cell test) were higher end of normal (not over), in fall 2015. I think my regular serum copper was high one time (cant find test). I posted about these to compare with others- minimal responses besides you.

So if these have any accuracy value at all, its funny they are high when copper is not in my supplements and I had signs of chronic infection for 25 years prior.

I think about a nitrus oxide and anther copper serum (regular Dr tests) in the near future.

Post Edited (astroman) : 11/12/2016 2:57:06 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 11/13/2016 8:47 AM (GMT 0)

astroman said...
GH - Thanks for the details on how copper functions in us.

Q) So high copper in blood (basic serum test? ) and high blood nitris oxide are likely to go hand in hand with infection ONLY if your copper levels are not depleted from liver "storage"?

Since it works that way, looks like copper level testing could be mis-leading. ?? I wonder if these is a good testing method.


There are so many intermediate molecules involved that high copper and high blood NO don't always go hand in hand. If your BH4 is low or a component used to make biopterin is low, NO will be low regardless of copper levels.
Copper testing is very misleading as are many of the tests used to determine our mineral levels in our body. There are intracellular levels, extracellular levels, serum levels, stored levels, excretion levels, ratios to other minerals, and all of these results need to be viewed from a certain perspective. Any information can be good as long as it's viewed from the correct perspective. That perspective is "where are you in your pathology of disease,....early, middle, or late?" And I saw one lady that was late in her fight and she showed signs of being early. There are just so many variables and so much that we don't know.
Posted 11/13/2016 4:47 PM (GMT 0)
So basically this is pointless to try to figure out copper levels.

Does it make any sense to test N O at all?
Posted 11/13/2016 10:02 PM (GMT 0)
I think trial and error with copper can be beneficial, but low and slow dosing is required. Only 1mg of copper gave me positive benefits for 3 days, then I went down hill after that. Eating the same diet, I gained 1 lb per day for those 3 days. That copper caused 3 lbs of fluid retention in my GI tract and I had to stop taking it after that. Was that from histamine formation? I sure felt better before I felt worse.

I don't think testing NO would be beneficial. We need to increase it, but we need to increase SOD also and both are often decreased on purpose. I think figuring out the pathogen(s) is the key. Think the opposite from what you've been thinking. Thinking the same will yield the same results.

I wish I had saved what I read about your condition. It explained it pretty good. The people that I have helped over the years get a file and everything I read about their condition gets put into that file. I offered to help you a long time ago but we couldn't work it out. I don't have enough time to help many folks these days and my research time has been cut way back. I should have more time next year after when I have less on my plate.
Posted 11/14/2016 5:07 PM (GMT 0)
"I think figuring out the pathogen(s) is the key."

Better tests are the key - to everyone.

My LLMD gave up, and said I reached 75% so be happy with it since some dont get that far. Said left over skeletal issues were probably just damage that can take years to heal since I had this for 25 years. . My gene dr gave up to, tried a lot , spent a lot per gene issues, but is glad to still take my money LOL.

I no longer have the whole gamut of symptoms that others here have, or a whole gamut of symptoms that point to a specific pathogen. Soft tissue recovery or cellular regeneration is my main issue, tendon, cartilage and some muscle ect.

Did a lot of testing for virusis too- none. I just know that candia is something I need to keep an eye on.

I should do the cd57 again, knowing its not to dependable, but I was always low.
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