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pulsing rifampin ? and does rocephin hit bart ? any one do levaquin?

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Posted 11/20/2016 11:59 PM (GMT 0)
Is it ok to pulse rifampin ? Old posts say no .dr j and others say ok ..i know liver function is key ..and it only has half life of 4 hrs ,so even every day i am pulsing ..obly at 300 and like a person without arms i just cannot hang ..every other maybe but i feel like i got a shot at bart baciliformis and i am scared at fq ...some say pulsing can make resistant should i muscle thru? i am pairing with zith ,abart and bvt ,and occasional roceph. Dr b said blo seems to come back after roceph is withdrwn. It says on label some gram neg stuff..is bart one of those ?

Does anybone have experience with cipro or levaquin ..it it worth the risk to kick bart back ? How do i know if i am being floxed ? Or is too late when it happens ...i know its a lot of questions but maybe a few veterans on here can help? Thanks hw
Posted 11/21/2016 12:28 AM (GMT 0)
I have no experience with rifampin bluelyme, but I say you should go with your gut on this. Are you saying you're pulsing every other day? You couldn't do 2 days in a row and skip a day? Is there an herb that works similarly that you could alternate with?

Just wanted to assure you, you aren't being ignored.
Posted 11/21/2016 12:47 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks july ,I am trying everyday ...for last week . I am taking byron white a bart ...i would trust bvt alone but nerves are being affected too fast too far
Posted 11/21/2016 12:57 AM (GMT 0)
Personally I wouldn't take cipro unless really desperate. Try with some other options. It irreversibly damages the tendons.
Posted 11/21/2016 1:16 AM (GMT 0)

bluelyme said...
Is it ok to pulse rifampin ? Old posts say no .dr j and others say ok ..i know liver function is key ..and it only has half life of 4 hrs ,so even every day i am pulsing ..obly at 300 and like a person without arms i just cannot hang ..every other maybe but i feel like i got a shot at bart baciliformis and i am scared at fq ...some say pulsing can make resistant should i muscle thru? i am pairing with zith ,abart and bvt ,and occasional roceph. Dr b said blo seems to come back after roceph is withdrwn. It says on label some gram neg stuff..is bart one of those ?

Does anybone have experience with cipro or levaquin ..it it worth the risk to kick bart back ? How do i know if i am being floxed ? Or is too late when it happens ...i know its a lot of questions but maybe a few veterans on here can help? Thanks hw

I am pulsing Rifampin...I have not regressed...been pulsing for several months now. (without checking notes...I'm thinking 6-7 months)
My nerve pain -thoracic - mostly right side still not backing down...but my right shoulder pain - flared a couple weeks ago (prior to flare it was just hurting in certain positions...daily) - and last couple days..I have no pain in that shoulder....right now...I am giving Rifampin the credit - thinking I herxed and now all is good...time will tell if the pain is gone for good. (I have had this pain in the shoulder for about 1 1/2 ...maybe 2 years.

I do trust Dr. J. He is the one LLMD that impresses me the most...
IF he wasn't getting results by pulsing...I would think he would change his practice...right?

Also, more LL dr.'s are pulsing now...so not just Dr. J.

I have not heard of rocephin being used for Bartonella....

I don't think you get a 'warning' if the cipro or leva are going to flox you...it can just happen.
Maybe you get a bit of tendon pain first...but would you know if it was flexing?
I don't know if the risks are worth it...maybe if you're feeling it's a last resort?

I'm reading/hearing more about persistence rather than resistance...even with bartonella.
Dr. M. (bart guru) says keep at it...don't quit too soon. Not always gone in 9-12 months.
Posted 11/21/2016 1:56 AM (GMT 0)
My vote is don't pulse rifampin. In test tube studies Bart becomes resistant between 3-12 passes of an antibiotic. That is after that many wash outs. It depends on the strain, some strains become resistant after just like 3 passes, other strains took like 12 passes to become resistant.

For me personally my bart became resistant so rifampin stopped working. Well it got to the point where the 600 mg dose stopped working but a 1200 mg dose did work. So then after you pulse awhile you gotta increase the dose to make it work. Clarithromycin also stopped working. When I first took clarithromycin it was like so incredibly effective I wish I would have just stayed on it.

But I believe girlie is right and some of it is persistence, but resistance does occur as well. Best to always use minimum 2 abx together for Bart. Or pulse with 3 is probably best.

I recently started doing double dropper fulls of sida Acuta, houttuynia, alchornea, Japanese knotweed. I think it's working, and Bart symptoms are like almost gone completely. But now I got some sore throats and feeling in my chest ... not sure what that is probably some virus or I'm worried probably mycoplasma. Oh well, at least the foot aches are almost gone away.
Posted 11/21/2016 2:00 AM (GMT 0)
Also don't take cipro or levaquin, you can devastate your mitochondria. And good luck getting well if your immune systems mitochondria stop working. Plus you'll get fluoride toxicity, telomere shortening in your cells, DNA damage, collagen damage.

I'm so glad I never took a fluoroquinolone. It was hard enough to recover from all the other antibiotics I took and I am STILL recovering from that lol!
Posted 11/21/2016 2:08 AM (GMT 0)

LymePickle said...
My vote is don't pulse rifampin. In test tube studies Bart becomes resistant between 3-12 passes of an antibiotic. That is after that many wash outs. It depends on the strain, some strains become resistant after just like 3 passes, other strains took like 12 passes to become resistant.

For me personally my bart became resistant so rifampin stopped working. Well it got to the point where the 600 mg dose stopped working but a 1200 mg dose did work. So then after you pulse awhile you gotta increase the dose to make it work. Clarithromycin also stopped working. When I first took clarithromycin it was like so incredibly effective I wish I would have just stayed on it.

But I believe girlie is right and some of it is persistence, but resistance does occur as well. Best to always use minimum 2 abx together for Bart. Or pulse with 3 is probably best.

I recently started doing double dropper fulls of sida Acuta, houttuynia, alchornea, Japanese knotweed. I think it's working, and Bart symptoms are like almost gone completely. But now I got some sore throats and feeling in my chest ... not sure what that is probably some virus or I'm worried probably mycoplasma. Oh well, at least the foot aches are almost gone away.

LP maybe if you're stopping treatment for months at a time it might become resistant?..how long were the 'passes'.
And we know in vitro doesn't necessarily translate to in vivo.

If that's so...how would you explain Dr. J's success stories... just lucky that bart wasn't resistant in those cases?
Posted 11/21/2016 2:15 AM (GMT 0)
Well I think he pulsed with multiple antibiotics each time right? Has to be. The studies done were with single abx, and I don't recall how long the time in between a washout and the next antibiotic was.

I just feel like they stopped working for me. I could be wrong though. Who knows maybe a chunk of my residual symptoms are viral? It's hard to say for sure.
Posted 11/21/2016 2:18 AM (GMT 0)
I don't think anyone would only use Rifampin for bart anyway...even non-pulsing protocols pair something with it.

i use two M/W/F (Rifampin plus biaxin or mino) and on Th/F I do a different antibiotic - Ceftin or Tinidazole.

But there is a week long break after two or three weeks.

But, LP - yours' stopped working...but you took your Rifampin daily...you didn't pulse did you?
Posted 11/21/2016 2:30 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks girlie ,lp,
Very good info ...re: herbals too...wow 1200...how was that spread?
on dosing is 600 once or twice a day ? Does it matter
Posted 11/21/2016 2:39 AM (GMT 0)
I paired Rifampin with another abx for 4 months earlier in the year made some progress. This go round I'm doing Rifabutin/Minocycline/Bactrim 4 days on 3 days off. Almost done with my 2nd week of pulsing and the combination is doing pretty well. I'm basically on 4 different abx and have never taken Rifabutin (though its similar to Rifampin) or Minocycline. My LLMD is fine with this approach and didn't mention anything about resistance. Sometimes I wonder if resistance is overblown and we're just dealing with complex infections and/or high bug loads which take a long time to get down.
Posted 11/21/2016 4:16 AM (GMT 0)

Rikky1 said...
I paired Rifampin with another abx for 4 months earlier in the year made some progress. This go round I'm doing Rifabutin/Minocycline/Bactrim 4 days on 3 days off. Almost done with my 2nd week of pulsing and the combination is doing pretty well. I'm basically on 4 different abx and have never taken Rifabutin (though its similar to Rifampin) or Minocycline. My LLMD is fine with this approach and didn't mention anything about resistance. Sometimes I wonder if resistance is overblown and we're just dealing with complex infections and/or high bug loads which take a long time to get down.

I'm thinking that, too....more persistence...than resistance...
Posted 11/21/2016 7:46 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks for the replies ..im dealing with a nasty bart ...any other input ?
Posted 11/21/2016 8:15 AM (GMT 0)
Rifampicin is the one abx that I've always been told not to pulse because of the risk of resistance developing. I know Dr J's patient are not able to share details of their protocols, but someone has mentioned to me that they are taking rifabutin not rifampicin. Rifabutin has a much longer half-life than rifampicin, so that may be why it's more suitable for pulsing.
Posted 11/21/2016 10:02 AM (GMT 0)

LymePickle said...
My vote is don't pulse rifampin. In test tube studies Bart becomes resistant between 3-12 passes of an antibiotic. That is after that many wash outs. It depends on the strain, some strains become resistant after just like 3 passes, other strains took like 12 passes to become resistant.
.


Yeap.
The studies also participated telithromycin, and showed the smallest concentration MIC.
Unfortunately the effectiveness of this antibiotic is not known.
Posted 11/21/2016 5:17 PM (GMT 0)
Ya choose rifabutin if you can afford it.... that is it's much more expensive. Do triple Bart abx, macrolide + rifabutin + tetracycline kind (doxy or mino). Don't pulse just one antibiotic, pulse them minimum 2, probably 3 is best.

Ya I did 1200 mg... 600 mg twice daily. Still didn't cure me!

I heard of people doing 1800 mg... 900 mg twice daily.

Your liver enzymes will elevate at first as Bart is killed off in the liver, then they normalize.

Dose needs to be high enough for long enough... And it takes a long time too, but I've heard of people say they just woke up one day and Bart was gone! But when it is gone keep going to make sure it's really gone.
Posted 11/21/2016 5:37 PM (GMT 0)

Celeste15 said...
Rifampicin is the one abx that I've always been told not to pulse because of the risk of resistance developing. I know Dr J's patient are not able to share details of their protocols, but someone has mentioned to me that they are taking rifabutin not rifampicin. Rifabutin has a much longer half-life than rifampicin, so that may be why it's more suitable for pulsing.

Others have told me they are pulsing Rifampin under Dr. J.'s care. ( 3 different people)

Here's what I found on Rifabutin -

"The elimination half-life of rifabutin is long (45 hours) but, as a result of a very large volume of distribution (> 9 L/kg), average plasma concentrations remain relatively low after repeated administration of standard doses. In vitro rifabutin is more active against M. avium-intracellulare complex and at least as active against M. tuberculosis as rifampicin. In vivo the advantage of rifabutin is less apparent due to its lower plasma concentrations at equivalent doses"

/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7736687
Posted 11/21/2016 5:59 PM (GMT 0)
That's good to know that Dr J is definitely pulsing rifampicin. Most people here (UK) won't say. Thank you Girlie. Much appreciated.
Posted 11/21/2016 6:08 PM (GMT 0)
You're welcome!


I don't know if he is with all patients..though.
Posted 11/21/2016 8:36 PM (GMT 0)
One of my good friends tells me whatever i ask about his protocol lol he sees dr. J. Do u guys want me to ask?
Posted 11/21/2016 8:56 PM (GMT 0)
I'd be interested, jennydancingfish! Thanks
Posted 11/21/2016 9:33 PM (GMT 0)
Yes jenny thanks everbody ..is it rifampin or rifabutin that he pulses?
Posted 11/21/2016 9:35 PM (GMT 0)
both - he uses rifampin...and he uses rifabutin

(obviously not in the same protocol)
Posted 11/21/2016 10:38 PM (GMT 0)
Dr.M.R. just put out an article on pulse dosing. He says ok for lyme but DO NOT pulse for bart or babs.

www.treatlyme.net/treat-lyme-book/lyme-pulse-antibiotics/

So if treating lyme +coinfection you should not pulse (according to him).
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