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If THIS is my worst symptom which herb do I add in?

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Posted 11/25/2016 2:38 PM (GMT 0)
Not boring you with my timeline.

I keep reading on here to treat your worst symptom first.

Last week I was sick in be (virus or herx) but this week I'm ok - actually no pain anywhere whatsoever. Which is scaring me because last time this happened a week later new symptoms cropped up. It's like they are all being quiet before jumping out to shout "SURPRISE!"

Right now my worst symptom is Babesia. It's not terrible but I do have the feeling I need to take a deep breath. I used to think it was anxiety because it ramped up when stressed. I had it fairly often yesterday. Tested positive for it too.

Was given Mepron but NG for me. I can take Malarone and do herbs on side but would prefer to try and Babs herb. I have BB Babs 1.

OR should I still be building up/healing immunity and treat it later on?
Posted 11/25/2016 2:41 PM (GMT 0)
I would say that you should stick to building up the doses on the other herbs for the other infections you are addressing at this point. You haven't really been on them long, and if your Babesia symptoms aren't that bad yet, take this time to get more stable on the current treatments before adding in more.

I may be 'odd man out' on this, but this is how I approached my healing, and do still.
Posted 11/25/2016 2:54 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks Trav will do.

So I can add in next:
-*Skullcap (I was going to try that and then got very sick last week)
-Cats Claw
-Sida
-BB BBC 1

*I think Skullcap is number 2 on the Buhner list of how to add in herbs. I have number 1, 3, and 4 but no 2 and I'm not ready for 5/6 yet.

From this list:

1. Protecting endothelial structures: page 214 - Japanese Knotweed, Stephania Root.

2. Cytokine remodulation: page 214 - Red Sage, Chinese Skullcap or Huang Qin.

3. Collagen protection: page 214 - Protein Essentials Hyrdrolized Collagen, Vitamin C, Selenium

4. Immune remodulation: Page 215 - Cat's Claw, Cordyceps, Ashwagandha, Eleutherococcus

5. Bart/Babesia/Mycoplasma: Sida Acuta, Houttuynia and Cryptolepis.

6. Antispirochetal: page 215 - Andrographis
Posted 11/25/2016 2:59 PM (GMT 0)
Well, considering I've not read that you must go in that order, I say do what you believe is right for your personal situation. Since you were going to add in Skullcap, I would say that you should go ahead and try that next.

I would suggest that you consider getting onto the andrographis and be at a good place with it (not herxing, tolerating pretty well) before moving on to any other infections. This will help you know what infections are making you herx and what herbs/other things you should be doing.

If you aren't in a good place and start treating other infections before being on a full protocol for one infection, it will be harder to sort out what's going on if you start herxing or have symptoms increasing in my view.
Posted 11/25/2016 3:03 PM (GMT 0)
Trav,

Thank you. I copied it from a post Peteza posted from Buhner's book. (Peteza, hope I copied it down correctly and I'm not putting out false info) - I may have typed in Stephania because that is what I can tolerate vs. JK.

Trav, are you suggesting I start with Skullcap THEN add in Androgrpahis OR go directly to Ando.?

Do you think the BB products will be too strong for me? They seem to cover several things.
Posted 11/25/2016 3:18 PM (GMT 0)
What I read in Buhner's book is "alter the protocol as you find necessary", not the 'you must do this in this order'. Now, I have NOT read this book from cover to cover, so I may have missed something - but it would seem that he would also put that in the same section where he's directing people to do the core protocol.

Yes, I would suggest that you start the Skullcap, then move on to the andrographis to 'complete' your Lyme protocol - then move on to the other infections.

Again, this is just what I have read and what I have done in my own treatments, but it did work, and it allowed me to know what infection and what herbs I was herxing on so I could do what I needed to be doing at different stages in my healing.

BB products seem to be strong for MOST chronic patients, so it's not just you. If I was going to start them, I would move forward with them, very, very cautiously - and LOTS of detoxing!!!
Posted 11/25/2016 3:21 PM (GMT 0)
Trav,

Will heed your High Priestess advice. Skullcap next.

I am chronic and I am super sensitive so BB on back burner for now. Sounds like a tongue twister!

Skullcap (Or Samento? I can't do CC) next then Andrographis.
Posted 11/25/2016 3:32 PM (GMT 0)

Huddie said...
Trav,

Thank you. I copied it from a post Peteza posted from Buhner's book. (Peteza, hope I copied it down correctly and I'm not putting out false info) - I may have typed in Stephania because that is what I can tolerate vs. JK.

Trav, are you suggesting I start with Skullcap THEN add in Androgrpahis OR go directly to Ando.?

Do you think the BB products will be too strong for me? They seem to cover several things.

Huddie,

I think you might want to double- check what you've copied. Yes, Buhner delineates the various aspects of healing from Lyme as you listed them. However, the Babs/Bart herbs are not delineated in his Lyme protocol so I'm not sure how they wound up on the list you shared.

Please know that herbs in general cover many things. Heck, the properties of Japanese Knotweed take up over a page in Buhner's Lyme book. That's why you'll find overlap of herbs among the various protocols.

For example, Japanese Knotweed is part of Buhner's Lyme and Bartonella protocols. Sida Acuta is part of his Babs and Bart protocols. Chinese Skullcap is recommended in all of his protocols.

The BB products contain multiple herbs (and many herbs enhance the actions of other herbs) and that is why we need to proceed more slowly with preparations such as those.

As I suggested on another thread (and in agreement with Trav), Chinese Skullcap seems appropriate as your next step.

Chinese Skullcap is a cytokine modulator. Cytokines are what the body produces in response to infection. Too many inflammatory cytokines are what cause our symptoms. Too little healing cytokines are what prevent healing. A cytokine modulator prompts the body to reduce its production of inflammatory cytokines and promotes the production of healing cytokines.

I hope you are already taking Red Root and, if you aren't, you plan on starting that soon as well (I'd start it before Andrographis).

Red Root helps clear lymph (major detox system)....and it helps with Babs/Bart by clearing RBC rouleaux (the red blood cell debris that is created when Babs/Bart die).

Good luck!
Posted 11/25/2016 3:40 PM (GMT 0)
To piggy back on all of the great advice Trav has giving you, it shouldn't matter what order you go in as long as the main goal of ramping up the full dose on a comprehensive protocol is eventually reached.

Also certain herbs can be added to "core" protocols based on symptoms and other infections you may have.

From a tactical and logistical standpoint, don't harp so much on what symptoms are the "worst" too much. Because borrelia and co are all systemic infections and can cause similar symptoms in different areas of the body. I think sometimes people get stuck on "okay which pathogen is responsible for this symptom" too much. And the answer really is "any of multisystemic infection that you may have". They are multi-systemic.

You have multiple infections, you know which ones they are, so build your protocol that's broad that address them at one time.

The list of herbs you provided and what they do in your second post is a good way to go about it (from a logistical standpoint, I haven't doubled checked the accuracy of that list).
Posted 11/25/2016 3:49 PM (GMT 0)
Also, and I may get some heat here because this may sound unsympathetic/unemphatic but,

When an herb is kicking your butt, it's kicking your but because it's working well (assuming it's not an allergic reaction). But then people tend to back off from it. I fear in these situation that people are trying to get the "gain" with no "pain".

If one doesn't successfully treat borrelia and co. they are going to feel a level bad and herx anyways. My approach was if I'm going to feel bad, I'm going to take those mother-fathers down with me.

And yes I will be criticized for this post. Let it begin.
Posted 11/25/2016 4:03 PM (GMT 0)
Decarte - I use the worst symptoms to direct a person as to which infection to treat next - in a general sort of way. That's because symptoms can be an indicator as to which infections may have the higher pathogen load. It's only a means to figuring out what infections to target first though, not to 'dwell' on exactly what symptoms are caused by what infections.
Posted 11/25/2016 4:13 PM (GMT 0)
Huddie you did copy that incorrectly. I never had your no. 5 in there.

As for treating your worst SYMPTOM is what Buhner says, not worst disease or co-infection.

I so agree with Traveler, in that you treat Bb and see what is leftover but, that is just me and I don't think anyone of us on this forum have a "perfect way" to treat.

Buhner says it is all individual and must be altered for the individual. I decided to do mine in order. But, I am a type A personality perfectionist and I love order. I also did my herbs individually to maximum dose, which is not the common consensus of this forum either.

So you see, we all have to make our own rules and our own ways about treatment. I do not think that anyone of us has done exactly the same thing as the other. Herbs affect us all differently and when I can take 2 droppers full and my husband can only take 10 drops of the same herb - there is your difference. And he has 50 lbs on me, so even weight has no bearing.
Posted 11/25/2016 4:25 PM (GMT 0)

dacarte3 said...
Also, and I may get some heat here because this may sound unsympathetic/unemphatic but,

When an herb is kicking your butt, it's kicking your but because it's working well (assuming it's not an allergic reaction). But then people tend to back off from it. I fear in these situation that people are trying to get the "gain" with no "pain".

If one doesn't successfully treat borrelia and co. they are going to feel a level bad and herx anyways. My approach was if I'm going to feel bad, I'm going to take those mother-fathers down with me.

And yes I will be criticized for this post. Let it begin.

I'm on board with this to a degree.

I've found that with some herbs, I've gone in heavy, and tried to stick it out for the herx, only to realized 2 or 3 weeks later that the herx is flat out not going away, and I'm unable to increase the dose any further.

With these stubborn herbs, I've had success minimizing the dose, but not so much that there's zero herx... just less of a herx. At this point I'm able to increase a few days later and then a few days after that.

My point is that I agree with having to deal with pain in order to gain, but if you do too much, you'll actually be worse off because you wont be able to increase the dose beyond that point. Whereas with the step-wise increase, you can go beyond what you otherwise could have handled, in a shorter amount of time.
Posted 11/25/2016 4:25 PM (GMT 0)

Huddie said...
...
Right now my worst symptom is Babesia. It's not terrible but I do have the feeling I need to take a deep breath. ..Tested positive for it too.

Was given Mepron but NG for me. I can take Malarone and do herbs on side but would prefer to try and Babs herb. I have BB Babs 1.

...


+Huddie have you or any other Babs positives experienced moderate to heavy lung pain when inhaling?
Posted 11/25/2016 4:28 PM (GMT 0)

Mustard Seed said...

dacarte3 said...
Also, and I may get some heat here because this may sound unsympathetic/unemphatic but,

When an herb is kicking your butt, it's kicking your but because it's working well (assuming it's not an allergic reaction). But then people tend to back off from it. I fear in these situation that people are trying to get the "gain" with no "pain".

If one doesn't successfully treat borrelia and co. they are going to feel a level bad and herx anyways. My approach was if I'm going to feel bad, I'm going to take those mother-fathers down with me.

And yes I will be criticized for this post. Let it begin.

Whereas with the step-wise increase, you can go beyond what you otherwise could have handled, in a shorter amount of time.

I also agree with the "ramping" approach, but some never get to full dose out of fear and then may just quit the herb all together.
Posted 11/25/2016 4:39 PM (GMT 0)
Huddie here is what Buhner says:

TREATMENT PROTOCOL
Buhner said there is a new science which studies bacterial cytokine response. In his book on bartonella and mycoplasma, Stephen explains this “cytokine response” as follows:

“Cytokines are small cell-signaling molecules released by the immune system, and the glial cells of the nervous system, that are important in intercellular communications in the body. In practical terms, when a bacteria touches a cell, the cell gives off a signal, a cytokine, that tells the immune system what is happening and what that cell needs.

Each type of infectious bacteria initiates a particular kind of cytokine cascade, that is, an initial and very powerful cytokine is released into the body, that initial cytokine stimulates the production of others, and those still others – all of which have potent impacts on the body. It is these cytokines, in fact, that create most of the symptoms that people experience when they are ill. [Underlined for emphasis]”

Buhner explained that his protocol for treating tick borne diseases is to stop the cytokine responses caused by the organisms, and the result is that you take away the environment that the bacteria need to survive. By interrupting the cytokine cascade, you stop the cellular breakdown so the bacteria cannot get any nutrients from the host.

edited - I broke it up for easier reading

Post Edited (PeteZa) : 11/25/2016 10:10:31 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 11/25/2016 4:44 PM (GMT 0)
And here is what else has to say -- I like his take on Herxing.

How To Tell Which Herbs Are Right For You::::

In the protocols listed below, you will notice that there are several herbs to treat each organism. However, all of the herbs don’t work for all people. To test which herbs will work for an individual, Stephen puts a drop of an herb in the patient’s mouth and then watches the patient’s physical reaction.

All of the herbs taste bad, so it isn’t about whether the patient likes the taste - it’s about the patient’s bodily reaction to the herb. He said that when a person’s body wants the herb, there will be a noticeable relaxation of the muscles, a slight smile may appear, there may be a flush of color to the face, and the eyes may shine. When the person’s body doesn’t want the herb, there will be a slight frown on the face and a tensing of the muscles.

During the conference, the owner of Woodland Essence (woodlandessence.com) passed herbs around for the audience to taste. It was really amazing how when we placed a drop on our hand and then tasted the herbs, we could really get a feeling for whether our bodies wanted the herb or not. One of the funniest moments for me was when the woman sitting next to me tasted Cryptolepis.

Any of you who have taken Crypto know that it is one of the worst tasting things known to man, but when this lady tasted it, her immediate reaction was, “Oh! That tastes great!” I looked at her and said incredulously, “Did you just say that tastes great? ” Her answer that was that she said it, but didn’t mean it, because it tasted horrible, but “that tastes great!” came out of her mouth.

She said it was her body’s reaction to wanting the herb so much that made her say it tasted great when her tongue said something different. This was an extreme case of what Stephen was talking about with the your-body-will-tell-you thing.

Herxheimer Reaction:

Only about three quarters of the people he has worked with get a Herx reaction, because he tries to avoid it.

edited - I broke it up for easier reading.

Post Edited (PeteZa) : 11/25/2016 10:11:32 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 11/25/2016 5:00 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks everyone. I need to apologize on my mis-posting. I took something I found on here and I must have added in the Babs/Bart as a step, because that is the order I am doing it in. So to Peteza, who so generously, offered me the original outline, I apologize for posting my version.

Trav and Dacarte, Thanks I get it now. D, I like tough love so not flaming you at all. Truth in what you say - I thought if an herb knocks me down for the day, literally happened with one drop of Red Sage that it meant it is not for me. I am all for feeling miserable but will never try Red Sage again. I'll give others a go though - for example, the homepathic EBV/thymus gave me a week long flu-like herx but it was tolerable. Red Sage gave me instantaneous depression bizarre head feeling. I need to function so can't just kamikaze this.

CD, Peteza, thansk for the explainations

Chicknearise - no our lungs do not hurt when inhaling - at all. As a matter of fact, I'm convince 99% of my son's symptoms are from Mepron.
Posted 11/25/2016 5:29 PM (GMT 0)
Try putting one drop of Red sage into about an ounce of water, then give it a good stir and divide that into 4 doses of 2 ounces each. Take each 2 ounces as one dose for the first 4 days and see how you do, if needed, repeat this until you can tolerate more. You may need to increase your detoxing still. In his Lyme protocol, Buhner lists this herb for cytokine remodulation.

On page 272 of his 2nd edition of 'Healing Lyme', he says:
" Herbs that remodulate the body's production of cytokines, in and of themselves, can reduce severity of infection, protect cellular and organ health, and inhibit the growth of the bacteria by interfering with their ability to scavenge nutrients. Chinese Skullcap is the strongest of these, so strong in fact that it's actions rise to antibacterial levels. There are some other good ones; the most broadly active is danshen, Salvia miltiorrhiza." (Red Sage).

Based on that, I would encourage you to try the Red Sage.
Posted 11/25/2016 5:31 PM (GMT 0)
No apology needed here Huddie. Shucks, is there anyone of us that hasn't goofed?

Hang in there.

I did a couple of herbs and boy did I know they were not right for me. But, I kept them and said, "maybe I will try again someday." I haven't.

What is sad is that I am hesitant to give the herbs I reacted negatively to my husband because of my reaction and this is not good!!! He is entirely different than me.
Posted 11/25/2016 6:03 PM (GMT 0)
Trav,

THANK you for alerting me to the fact that Red Sage is gentler than Skullcap. Yikes. I will do as you say with the Red Sage. Great idea.

See, this is why I need Lyme for Dummies, or 'Lyme for Huddie' - same thing smilewinkgrin

Peteza, I loved the story about the herbs and tasting to see how the body reacts. I may try that.

I get you with herbs you don't react well to and not wanting to subject your husband to them. I'm surprised to hear there is any herb you had a reaction to. You are a such an herb warrior.
Posted 11/25/2016 6:44 PM (GMT 0)

CD3764 said...


................Please know that herbs in general cover many things. Heck, the properties of Japanese Knotweed take up over a page in Buhner's Lyme book. That's why you'll find overlap of herbs among the various protocols.

For example, Japanese Knotweed is part of Buhner's Lyme and Bartonella protocols. Sida Acuta is part of his Babs and Bart protocols. Chinese Skullcap is recommended in all of his protocols.

The BB products contain multiple herbs (and many herbs enhance the actions of other herbs) and that is why we need to proceed more slowly with preparations such as those.

As I suggested on another thread (and in agreement with Trav), Chinese Skullcap seems appropriate as your next step.

Chinese Skullcap is a cytokine modulator. Cytokines are what the body produces in response to infection. Too many inflammatory cytokines are what cause our symptoms. Too little healing cytokines are what prevent healing. A cytokine modulator prompts the body to reduce its production of inflammatory cytokines and promotes the production of healing cytokines.

I hope you are already taking Red Root and, if you aren't, you plan on starting that soon as well (I'd start it before Andrographis).

Red Root helps clear lymph (major detox system)....and it helps with Babs/Bart by clearing RBC rouleaux (the red blood cell debris that is created when Babs/Bart die).

Good luck!


If you don't mind I want to paste this into my own healing plan. How you explain this makes what you're saying so clear and understandable. Thank you!

Post Edited (julymorning) : 11/25/2016 12:27:06 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 11/25/2016 7:06 PM (GMT 0)
Happy you find my words helpful, julymorning - feel free to use them any way you wish ;)
Posted 11/25/2016 7:26 PM (GMT 0)

Traveler said...
Try putting one drop of Red sage into about an ounce of water, then give it a good stir and divide that into 4 doses of 2 ounces each. Take each 2 ounces as one dose for the first 4 days and see how you do, if needed, repeat this until you can tolerate more. You may need to increase your detoxing still. In his Lyme protocol, Buhner lists this herb for cytokine remodulation.

On page 272 of his 2nd edition of 'Healing Lyme', he says:
" Herbs that remodulate the body's production of cytokines, in and of themselves, can reduce severity of infection, protect cellular and organ health, and inhibit the growth of the bacteria by interfering with their ability to scavenge nutrients. Chinese Skullcap is the strongest of these, so strong in fact that it's actions rise to antibacterial levels. There are some other good ones; the most broadly active is danshen, Salvia miltiorrhiza." (Red Sage).

Based on that, I would encourage you to try the Red Sage.

Just about the time I was getting the logic of all this, I was thrown by your red sage dilution measurements. Did you mean to say to try putting one drop of Red Sage into about 8 ounces of water? (rather than an ounce)

This is another trick I will probably incorporate as I progress into new herbs.
Posted 11/26/2016 1:58 PM (GMT 0)
Ha ha ha! Yep! That's what I meant. Sorry!!! My math skills were all used up from all the cooking I did all week!
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