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Quick herx from abx/herbs prove you're dealing with BLO?

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Posted 12/2/2016 9:47 PM (GMT 0)
Was doing some research and ran across a few threads that stated if you take an abx and/or herb and get a fairly quick herx reaction then you're dealing with an organism that has a short reproductive lifecycle like Bartonella, a Bartonella like organism, or a gram negative protozoa. A slow growing organism like Lyme won't give you a hit that quickly.

Curious any truth to this? Thoughts? Still trying to wrap my head around it. I would think whether an organism grows slowly or quickly that wouldn't have anything to do with killing it. Thx.
Posted 12/2/2016 9:59 PM (GMT 0)
Wow! I hadn't heard this, but I had instant herxing from Cats Claw - within 24 hours at least. Also - Bactrim, and Allicin, as well as sida acuta and houttuynia and I think a bit from teasel root. The one that took a bit was the cistus tea. Around a week before I began to herx, maybe a tad longer. Researching now.
This is a particular favorite I like to come back to again and again /chronicillnessrecovery.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=161
"
Identifying the Herxheimer reaction

Herxheimer symptoms are varied, may be unexpected, subjective or objective. Patients report that a Herxheimer reaction makes them feel as though their disease symptoms have suddenly gotten worse. They may describe reactivation of previous symptoms, exacerbation of current symptoms, or new symptoms. The onset of herxing is from 1-2 hrs to 10 days after the antibiotic/s are administered. Patients who have received other therapies prior to starting IT may have delayed or reduced Herxheimer reactions.
....

Symptoms of Herxheimer reactions

IT unavoidably increases disease symptoms; some of them are subclinical.

The most common symptoms reported include increased fatigue, joint or muscle pain, skin rashes, photosensitivity, irritability, paresthesia, dizziness, sleep disturbances, asthenia, muscle cramps, night sweats, hypertension, hypotension, headaches (especially migraines) and swollen glands. Also reported are heavy perspiration, metallic taste in mouth, chills, nausea, bloating, constipation or diarrhea, low grade fever, heart palpitations, tachycardia, facial palsy, tinnitus, mental confusion, uncoordinated movement, pruritus, bone pain, flu-like syndrome, conjunctivitis and throat swelling.

Physicians may note objective symptoms of a Herxheimer reaction such as elevated creatinine, blood urea nitrogen, liver enzymes, sedimentation rate, gamma globulin or a decrease in white blood cells, hemoglobin, or platelets.
Any symptom, including abnormal lab results, that correlates with IT may be due to herxing."

Other herx links.
www.treatlyme.net/treat-lyme-book/herxheimer-die-off-reaction-inflammation-run-amok/

I like the literature discussion in this one - and the epsom salt concoction I've used from this.
jemsekspecialty.com/the-herxheimer-reaction/

One hour reaction after an anti-biotic, lyme treatment
/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9610974

Post Edited (multifacetedme) : 12/2/2016 3:23:05 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 12/2/2016 11:04 PM (GMT 0)

Rikky1 said...
Was doing some research and ran across a few threads that stated if you take an abx and/or herb and get a fairly quick herx reaction then you're dealing with an organism that has a short reproductive lifecycle like Bartonella, a Bartonella like organism, or a gram negative protozoa. A slow growing organism like Lyme won't give you a hit that quickly.

Curious any truth to this? Thoughts? Still trying to wrap my head around it. I would think whether an organism grows slowly or quickly that wouldn't have anything to do with killing it. Thx.

I don't know if that is true.

I've read that the bacteria can only be killed off during one stage of it's lifecycle...so if it's reproducing more often...then maybe that would make sense?

IDK

I seem to be herxing quickly....it's never taken weeks...My first antibiotic was Day 4...and has followed that pattern for several different antibiotics.
Recently, I am finding the Bactrim is 'hitting' me quickly. I take a break for a day..and then go back on...and it's within hours I feel it.
Unless it's side effects of the Bactrim.
Posted 12/3/2016 2:19 AM (GMT 0)
>Unless it's side effects of the Bactrim.

I don't thinks so as I've had the same experience and that would support the theory that quicker reproducing organisms = quicker herxing makes a lot of sense with something similar to Bart.

I'm moving beyond the term Bartonella Like Organisms to Unknown Gram Negative Protozoans and not just cause I want to change the label. I want to focus on things that can inhibit/prevent/kill Gram Negative bacteria. This opens up more avenues when searching for effective treatments.
Posted 12/3/2016 2:27 AM (GMT 0)
Protozoans usually refer to apicomplexians (fl1953 ,toxoplasmosis ,babs ..some are bigger some are not intercellular like bart ,erlichia ,rmsf .brucella ...but ya gram neg stink..msids sucks ..i stopped calling it lyme...a stink blossem like msids called by any other name still stinks just as much ...

iv artensuate ..super zhang hh pills , im almost ready to try levaquin...

Post Edited (bluelyme) : 12/2/2016 7:30:33 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 12/3/2016 4:14 PM (GMT 0)
bluelyme i tried both cipro and levaquin for the little buggers. had no reactions on lower dose of cipro last year took for a month but when i went with larger dose could only last a few weeks. levaquin had a much quicker time bringing about tendonitis in both legs close to the knee. once i stopped it went away completely (some say it never goes away for me it did).

Levaquin is very powerful against bacteria because it uses 2 enzymes (topoisomerase IV and DNA gyrase) to mess with their DNA and prevent replication. This is quite a bit different mechanism of action than many other abx.
Posted 12/3/2016 4:19 PM (GMT 0)
I did Levaquin for 3 months and it did nothing for me. No improvement, no herx, no side effects.

As for the original question, I don't know why the quickness of herx onset would correlate to how fast a bacteria/protozoan multiplies?

If you have a spirochete in your blood, and something comes along and kills it, it's going to flare your immune system to get rid of the leftovers right away, regardless of how fast the remaining bacteria are multiplying.
Posted 12/3/2016 4:54 PM (GMT 0)
I agree with the others, how fast you herx really has little to do with the length of the life cycle of the bacteria. Lyme can't be killed except in the bloodstream when it's a spirochete - if it's in the tissues in another form, or if it 'feels' like it's being attacked (quorum sensing), it just changes to a protective form or gets to biofilms.
Posted 12/3/2016 9:09 PM (GMT 0)
If Lyme replicates every 3-4 weeks and only then are they 'vulnerable' to abx versus some other bacteria that replicates much quicker wouldn't you have more and quicker opportunities to kill them hence a quicker herx?
Posted 6/2/2017 1:19 PM (GMT 0)
Theory is logical.. There are many cidal abx tho that kill without needing a repro cycle to work.
Posted 6/2/2017 2:08 PM (GMT 0)
I have always felt herx effects very quickly (within 30 min) with effective meds. Often asked myself this very question, what does this mean? is it bart, BLO, another occult pathogen, does it mean it is a quickly replicating organism, or a very sensitive pathogen that engenders large response due to toxin release? is it because I have high pathogen load or is it due to location and spread of pathogen in specific and various tissues? is it due to immune system genetics? meds stirring up immune system? lots of questions I've had a hard time nailing down anything concrete. My guess is bart of BLO is driving these herx reactions coupled with my immune system genetics make me more susceptible, but I'm not positive per usual just best guessing.

Btw if anyone has any links or information please share! I've tried to read as much as I can on the subject but it's hard to make heads or tails of the information out there, it's a thicket of various hypotheses and anecdotal stories.

Post Edited (sebreg) : 6/2/2017 8:11:48 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 6/2/2017 2:11 PM (GMT 0)
All those questions are very relevant, Sebreg. It could be any one of those things which is why we can't say that it's one organism that does this, but could be a number of factors. I do have to admit it would sure be nice to be able to know that just from a fast herx that we are hitting something that is able to be narrowed down like that though. I just see that there are many other possibilities.
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