Getting down to specifics

I've been reading these threads for a little while now. I can't seem to find a protocol or treatment that seems to be working for anybody. People are constantly taking shots in the dark without any thought behind what they are doing. Then changing in a month and still have symptoms the entire time.

I dont want a guess and check protocol. I want evidence.
So I have a few questions that I feel need to be answered.

As far as these different types of bacteria... what is it about them that is causing the symptoms?

Is the bacteria itself causing problems? Or is it the immune systems reaction to the bacteria causing inflammation which leads to symptoms?

If we know that then we can treat with purpose.

What are specific herbs accomplishing?
Reduced inflammation?
Killing bacteria?

What proof do we have that the herbs will do these things?

Should we be killing bacteria with antibiotics?
Reducing inflammation by seeing a rheumatologist?
If the bacteria just comes back why take antibiotics at all? Why not just let the immune system fight?

I would like to find solutions and not sample herbs.

I would also like to take some polls of people who have gone into remission for more than 3 months + to find out what medication/herb/protocol they were on right before the remission.

This would give us some clear answeres as to what is working and what is not. I may work on this later in the day and post it in a new thread.

MAF249 said...
I would also like to take some polls of people who have gone into remission for more than 3 months + to find out what medication/herb/protocol they were on right before the remission.

This would give us some clear answeres as to what is working and what is not. I may work on this later in the day and post it in a new thread.

Yeah...Bare in mind that this is a systematic approach, no matter what protocol you use. You can't just pin a final treatment before remission as what 'did the trick'.

There are reasons we succumbed to the Lyme or whatever in the first place. Top on that list is our immune function. Something pulled the rug out from under it.

Dealing with THAT, fixing what knocked out immune system down is the very first step. It could have been something like snowballing emotional stress.

To emphasize what Julymorning is explaining - I used a set of herbs to put myself into remission that doesn't work for most people - and that's the problem we all run into, no matter if you are talking about herbs or pharma abx. What works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another.

This is at least partly due to the process of the infections and what systems they attack the hardest. Inflammation is a big thing for lots of Lyme patients, and not hardly noticeable for others, for example.

MAF249 said...
I've been reading these threads for a little while now. I can't seem to find a protocol or treatment that seems to be working for anybody. People are constantly taking shots in the dark without any thought behind what they are doing. Then changing in a month and still have symptoms the entire time.

One protocol that worked for someone, may not work for another.

We aren't constantly taking shots in the dark without any thought behind what we are doing.
Lyme patients are usually very well educated with treatment options..and other aspects of the disease.

We put a LOT of thought behind what we are doing...because there is not one magic bullet.

The testing isn't good enough to allow us to rely on...so we need to go on symptoms and response to treatments.

MAF249 said...
I agree that using antibiotics is probably not a good idea since the bacteria will come back.

I know the buhner protocol ive. Recently read about it. But do we have evidence that these herbs do what they do?

Candida can be taken care of with simple probiotics. And it shouldn't come back unless bacteria killing herbs/abx are taken to disrupt the natural balance.

So my train of thought would be that we give up on trying to kill the bacteria because we can't. And we are just causeing candida which causes symptoms. Which leads to more confusion.

And candida has nothing to do with the bacteria infecting our blood, brain and joints. Candida is only in the gut and mouth. Too much candida causes general inflammation.

So we shouldnt take antibacterials unless we are sure the lyme and co will be killed off. Or else were just causeing more issues.

Even with herbal protocols, there are antibacterials that are used...not just herbs for immune function. Yes, we can kill the bacteria. We do want to support our immune system as well.

I know many people who have healed with antibiotics...only...

No, Candida does go systemic - past the gut and mouth ...that is a fact.

Years....with no symptoms coming back.

Candid goes systemic only by causeing systemic inflamation triggered by the gut.


Edit... which is usually cause by antibiotics and antibacterial herbs.

So if youre using antibacterial herbs and have candida then youre shooting youself in the foot.

We do not give up on killing the bacteria, we work with our body to allow it to kill the bacteria off, but there is also evidence (testimonial as Girlie said) that many of the herbs do have a killing action.

That being said, there are many rational schools of thought that what we should strive for is a symbiotic balance with all bacteria, since any one of them could get out of balance and cause havoc.

I'm not convinced of any benefit of having Borrelia inside of me, or any of the other micro organisms that might have come along with my Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever and Lyme, such as Bartonella and/or Babesiosis, but I will be happy to get as much out as possible.

Japanese knotweed crosses the blood/brain barrier. (That's one herb I know...)

To reduce inflammation, you need to get rid of the bugs. The die-off of the bugs creates inflammation.
Even without anti-bacterial herbs/meds, the bugs are dying off from natural life-cycle.

The immune system needs to be boosted, but the herbal protocols also include antibacterial herbs.

I will definitely look into these herbs as much as possible and Ill see what conclusions I feel I can make. Thank you! Best of luck to all of us.

If your next problem with the abx I took not killing all of them off, it's primarily because the bacteria had been in my system for 30+ years by then.

Girlie. the Japanese knotweed does seem like a great source of trans-resveratrol which is the bioavailable form. this is only for inflammation though and while it will not kill the bacteria itself it will help your body kill the bacteria by helping the immune system.