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Does the EM Rash ALWAYS Mean Lyme Disease?

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Posted 8/21/2017 5:23 PM (GMT 0)
Is the sign of the bullseye a 100% absolute for the outcome of Lyme? Does anyone know percentage and determining factors?
Posted 8/21/2017 5:34 PM (GMT 0)
The EM rash is only present with Lyme. You have it so start treatment with an LLMD asap. Take a picture or two if its not already faded. The EM rash is more positive proof than any lab test.
Posted 8/21/2017 5:42 PM (GMT 0)
No that's not the question - I am asking does having the rash mean you contracted the disease or can you get the rash and not contract the disease.
Posted 8/21/2017 5:47 PM (GMT 0)
It is one of the most important symptoms directly linked to only lyme. Only about 50% of people even develop the EM rash or see and recognize it. I've read that some LLMDs think it is caused more by a nymph that cannot bury that deep into the skin, than an adult tick that can burrow deeper into blood vessels.

I suppose you could have the rash, but if your immune system is strong you may not develop Lyme sx until later on if something triggers an immune reduction (accident, illness, or even depression). I got bit in June 2005 and had the rash in a week. My PCP gave me doxy (too weak at 200mg/day) for 28 days. I never had any noticeable sx until spring of 2008. After a year with Neuro and another year with Rheumy I got to an LLMD and started tx in March 2010.

Post Edited (tickbite666) : 8/21/2017 11:54:41 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 8/21/2017 5:48 PM (GMT 0)

Joyous said...
No that's not the question - I am asking does having the rash mean you contracted the disease or can you get the rash and not contract the disease.

The EM is diagnostic for LD. Both the IDSA and ILADS agree on this.

You need to treat it.
Posted 8/21/2017 5:50 PM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...

Joyous said...
No that's not the question - I am asking does having the rash mean you contracted the disease or can you get the rash and not contract the disease.

The EM is diagnostic for LD. Both the IDSA and ILADS agree on this.

You need to treat it.

Agreeing with Girlie. No doubt about it, Lyme is the only thing that produces a bulls eye rash.
Posted 8/21/2017 6:12 PM (GMT 0)
Correct me if I'm wrong and I really do need more data on this, but it's the tick bite that causes the rash. Whether or not the rash will develop into full-blown LD is a *variable* dependent on immune system's ability to fight off the initial invasion. (?) And if this is true, you could possibly be bitten - get the rash - and not develop the disease.
Posted 8/21/2017 6:22 PM (GMT 0)
I might go so far to say that it's not the tick bite by itself that caused the EM rash, but its a dissemination of Bb bacteria. I know lots of hunters and farmers that get bit by ticks (including deer ticks) that have yet to develop full blown Lyme disease. Could be its what they drink and smoke that keeps them healthy 8^0, or they were lucky with not getting other co-infections that also shut down the immune system.
Posted 8/21/2017 6:26 PM (GMT 0)
Thank you smile
Posted 8/21/2017 7:09 PM (GMT 0)
No it's from the Lyme bacteria not the tick bite.
Posted 8/22/2017 2:32 AM (GMT 0)
The Borrelia bacteria is now in your body.

I think your question is "is it 100% guarantee I'll be symptomatic". Not necessarily. You could be asymptomatic.

It's believed as many as 1 in 15 people harbor borrelia but not all are symptomatic.
Posted 8/22/2017 4:28 PM (GMT 0)
Not to mention the relapsing/remitting aspect of some of the strains of Borrelia. That's when it gets confusing for a lot of people.

And, I agree, not the tick bite (not all ticks are infected) but the bacteria (Borrelia) and how your body handles the invading bacteria, and whether there is more than one bacteria present in the tick (the more different strains/types of bacteria/viruses/protozoans, the more likely it is to overwhelm the body). Just to name a few of the variables.

I've never once had the bull's eye rash - and yet I've been infected many, many times over. Even after I healed that first time, then got reinfected, I never showed a bulls eye rash. That's because there are many strains of Borrelia that do NOT produce a bulls eye rash.
Posted 8/23/2017 5:27 AM (GMT 0)
Wellll... I would say an EM from a tick or unknown source should be treated for Lyme, but no, an EM is not exclusive to Lyme. You can also get them from mosquitoes, spiders, and ringworm.

If it just appeared, with no itching or otherwise traumatic injury; or if you actually found a tick, then I would guess Lyme is very likely and should be tested and treated.

If it developed from a mosquito bite or is itchy, it's probably something else. But seeing a doctor and/or tracking symptoms wouldn't hurt then either.
Posted 8/23/2017 6:02 AM (GMT 0)

BabsBunny said...
Wellll... I would say an EM from a tick or unknown source should be treated for Lyme, but no, an EM is not exclusive to Lyme. You can also get them from mosquitoes, spiders, and ringworm.

If it just appeared, with no itching or otherwise traumatic injury; or if you actually found a tick, then I would guess Lyme is very likely and should be tested and treated.

If it developed from a mosquito bite or is itchy, it's probably something else. But seeing a doctor and/or tracking symptoms wouldn't hurt then either.



A true EM is from Bb (lyme) -
Nothing else produces an EM.

Ringworm is not an EM - it is different....it's ringworm.

Spider and mosquito bites that produce an EM - it is lyme. (It is thought that other insects can also transmit Bb)



From ILADS:
"It is important to know that the EM rash is pathognomonic of Lyme disease and requires no further verification prior to starting an appropriate course of antibiotic therapy."

www.ilads.org/lyme/about-lyme.php
Posted 8/23/2017 7:52 AM (GMT 0)
Borrelia is a large family and their stock test checks only for one member. So it's like a test to detect if a member of the family is in by just checking if mom is in house when the whole family is composed of mom, dad and several kids.

If mom is not in at home , but lots of dishes mysteriously keep piling up in the kitchen, they'll tell you it's nobody at home because they checked if mom is at home and got a negative (and forget about who's using the dishes, that's you asking too many questions). So dad and the crazy kids can do a lot of mess in the whole house... and they will not be asked to clean dishes afterwards because "they are not at home"...

Actually rashes are associated with many strains of borrelia and right now we don't check for most, the stock check is for Burdgorferi and if u are unlucky u can get infected with miyamotoi , mayonii, lonestari or other strains that give u a false negative to the stock lyme test.

then they will tell you it's a rash but it's not lyme. This research paper just in
stm.sciencemag.org/content/9/403/eaal2717

What the heck is Southern tick-associated rash illness (STARI) ... it's a rash but when u test for borrelia u get a negative test. Well of course you get a negative, it's not borrelia budgorferi, it's some other Borrelia...

The whole thing is beyond ridiculous. Well, soon a good proportion of the population will be chronically ill with this darn disease. Infections, left unchecked, tend to spread.... then we'll see who's laughing, us or the CDC...

Post Edited (mpost) : 8/23/2017 1:55:07 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 8/23/2017 11:38 AM (GMT 0)

dacarte3 said...
The Borrelia bacteria is now in your body.

I think your question is "is it 100% guarantee I'll be symptomatic". Not necessarily. You could be asymptomatic.

It's believed as many as 1 in 15 people harbor borrelia but not all are symptomatic.

I'm of the same opinion.

Borrelia is in your body, almost no doubt (the EM rash is a proof).

Whether you develop full blown lyme disease or not, is another question.

But I would treat anyway, just as prevention. At least for about 6 weeks.

But I would NOT use antibiotics, because I think LYME is an IMMUNE DISEASE more than an infectious disease.

Plantar warts (caused by virus), herpes bouts, candida, cold, flu viruses, Hep C etc, these do not affect everyone just because you had 'contact' with the pathogens.

It depends on the immune system.

I think that Borrelia is also an opportunistic pathogen, like candida species.

Some doctors practicing biological medicine here in Europe also think that Borrelia is opportunistic. Like dr. Rau.

So the more you reinforce your body and immune system, the more chances you'll have to keep free from developing severe symptoms. That is only my opinion, why I would treat the EM rash or bite, but not treat it using antibiotics.

But treatment, yes, definitively, I would take herbs, homeopathic products or do some sort of energy therapy (rife, microcurrent, photon therapy, etc).
Posted 8/23/2017 12:24 PM (GMT 0)

Jinna said...

dacarte3 said...
The Borrelia bacteria is now in your body.

I think your question is "is it 100% guarantee I'll be symptomatic". Not necessarily. You could be asymptomatic.

It's believed as many as 1 in 15 people harbor borrelia but not all are symptomatic.

I'm of the same opinion.

Borrelia is in your body, almost no doubt (the EM rash is a proof).

Whether you develop full blown lyme disease or not, is another question.

But I would treat anyway, just as prevention. At least for about 6 weeks.

But I would NOT use antibiotics, because I think LYME is an IMMUNE DISEASE more than an infectious disease.

Plantar warts (caused by virus), herpes bouts, candida, cold, flu viruses, Hep C etc, these do not affect everyone just because you had 'contact' with the pathogens.

It depends on the immune system.

I think that Borrelia is also an opportunistic pathogen, like candida species.

Some doctors practicing biological medicine here in Europe also think that Borrelia is opportunistic. Like dr. Rau.

So the more you reinforce your body and immune system, the more chances you'll have to keep free from developing severe symptoms. That is only my opinion, why I would treat the EM rash or bite, but not treat it using antibiotics.

But treatment, yes, definitively, I would take herbs, homeopathic products or do some sort of energy therapy (rife, microcurrent, photon therapy, etc).

I agree 98%. However, I believe ABX with herbs is effective (as Buhner actually acknowledges as being a good combo). If the correct herbal protocol is taken then the herbs help boost the immune system, bust cyst/films (that the abx may cause), protects the liver (that abx can be hard on), and detoxes.

So you get the benefit of the abx and neutralize as much as possible the negative effects it may have on the body.
Posted 8/23/2017 2:03 PM (GMT 0)

mpost said...
Borrelia is a large family and their stock test checks only for one member. So it's like a test to detect if a member of the family is in by just checking if mom is in house when the whole family is composed of mom, dad and several kids.

If mom is not in at home , but lots of dishes mysteriously keep piling up in the kitchen, they'll tell you it's nobody at home because they checked if mom is at home and got a negative (and forget about who's using the dishes, that's you asking too many questions). So dad and the crazy kids can do a lot of mess in the whole house... and they will not be asked to clean dishes afterwards because "they are not at home"...

Actually rashes are associated with many strains of borrelia and right now we don't check for most, the stock check is for Burdgorferi and if u are unlucky u can get infected with miyamotoi , mayonii, lonestari or other strains that give u a false negative to the stock lyme test.

then they will tell you it's a rash but it's not lyme. This research paper just in
stm.sciencemag.org/content/9/403/eaal2717

What the heck is Southern tick-associated rash illness (STARI) ... it's a rash but when u test for borrelia u get a negative test. Well of course you get a negative, it's not borrelia budgorferi, it's some other Borrelia...

The whole thing is beyond ridiculous. Well, soon a good proportion of the population will be chronically ill with this darn disease. Infections, left unchecked, tend to spread.... then we'll see who's laughing, us or the CDC...

I soooo agree with you, Mpost!!! All I could do was shake my head in disbelief when I read that article you shared! I mean, seriously???
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