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I'd like to discuss the relation between lyme and low dopamine

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Posted 10/27/2019 4:56 PM (GMT 0)
I believe I've had signs of low dopamine for a while, even before fully getting ill. I have bad sugar & carb cravings though I rarely give in to them. I have very poor mental energy. I'm not depressed but my moods are often low. I have an intense drive to be stimulated. These all sound low dopamine to me.
I questioned if this could be a leaky gut issue but I also found this article

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/28736624/

I know that disulfiram has some dopamine boosting effects and wonder if that could be part of the cause of improved quality of life. I'm wondering, does the dopamine reduction have to be there before the lyme flourishes or does the lyme drive down one's dopamine levels?
Posted 10/27/2019 5:10 PM (GMT 0)
What a great topic Aerose91. It's also a topic I might be able to offer some of my experiences about.

I'm currently on Adderall, which increases the activity of dopamine and norepinephrine in the brain. I've also been on Methylphenidate, which works slightly differently by blocking dopamine reuptake.

There are also a few more rx's I've tried, although those had slighter affinity when it comes to dopamine.

Furthermore, the supplement schizandra is a favorite for me, due to it's adrenal stimulating effects. However, I found out later that one of its compounds, shizandrol A, increases dopamine in the brain.

I have to brainstorm and think a bit about your questions and I'm not home right now. But I wanted to throw this out there to start of your thread and in case you have any questions.
Posted 10/27/2019 5:47 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks for your guys' input. RainyCloud, did you have any of these issues where Adderall helped before your lyme journey?
Posted 10/27/2019 6:37 PM (GMT 0)
It can really mess up brain and gut chemistry (they are connected).

The brain amino acids/chemicals can be tested somehow to, was $400 for a panel if I remember right. I never did it.
Posted 10/27/2019 11:55 PM (GMT 0)
I was definitely off before I got sick. As in, the illness was building in me but I didn't know it yet. Of course, the psych stuff wasn't even remotely like it is now. No doubt the lyme has made it worse bit I wonder which was there first- the lyme or gut issues
Posted 10/28/2019 2:00 AM (GMT 0)
I too am addicted to carbs
Posted 10/28/2019 3:52 AM (GMT 0)

UnsightlyCygnet🌠 said...

Aerose91 said...

Sugar and carb cravings are serotonin related from what I recall. I had issues earlier this year, quitting a vapouriser for nicotine and coffee at the same time. I just felt like crap all the time, same as you describe, low and a need to be stimulated.

Correct, serotonin is usually related to carb cravings while dopamine is more related to pleasure and satisfaction + drive/motivation.

Its easy to confuse the two, often when one is low both are low. In lyme, its not uncommon for all of the neurotransmitters to be low (or some high, like GABA which is the brakes for the brain).

ADHD can be made worse by lyme, according to Dr.Amen people with ADHD are chronically low in dopamine and norepinephrine and constantly need stimulation.
I personally was told by a psychiatrist that I had mild ADD, and that pre-lyme I probably had it but it wasn't a problem until the lyme worsened it. It was more of a hypothesis though, not necessarily set in stone fact.
Posted 10/28/2019 7:27 PM (GMT 0)
I thought dopamine caused the drive for reward- like drugs, sugar and as addictions etc..

I also remember Dr Amen talking about ADD, he called it adrenaline defecit disorder. Sure wish there was a fix to all this!
Posted 10/29/2019 1:54 AM (GMT 0)
Yes dopamine is the addictive receptor but serotonin is generated from carbohydrates so it could be either. I don't care for the Amen clinic personally
Posted 10/29/2019 5:32 AM (GMT 0)
I just don't see borrelia getting in sufficient quantities to alter enough dopamine to be the main issue. A more plausible explanation is that the altered microbiome created from borrelia decreases dopamine availability because decreased niacin levels shunt tryptophan from the neurotransmitter pathway over to make niacin. It takes 67 mg of tryptophan to make 1 mg of nicotinamide.

Borrelia having sulfotransferases would be much more important when eating animal protein because of the high sulfur content.
Posted 10/30/2019 10:43 AM (GMT 0)
I remember in my Great Plains report it was stated that Ochratoxin A undermines dopamine in the brain. From my experience it most definitely does.

Here's the full version:

Ochratoxin: Ochratoxin A (OTA) is a nephrotoxic, immunotoxic, and carcinogenic mycotoxin. This chemical is produced by molds in the Aspergillus and Penicillium families. Exposure is done primarily through water damaged buildings. Minimal exposure can occur through contaminated foods such as cereals, grape juices, dairy, spices, wine, dried vine fruit, and coffee. Exposure to OTA can also come from inhalation exposure in water-damaged buildings. OTA can lead to kidney disease and adverse neurological effects. Studies have shown that OTA can lead to significant oxidative damage to multiple brain regions and is highly nephrotoxic. Dopamine levels in the brain of mice have been shown to be decreased after exposure to OTA. Some studies have hypothesized that OTA may contribute to the development of neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. Treatment should be aimed at removing the source of exposure. Agents such as oral cholestyramine, charcoal, and phenylalanine can help prevent the absorption of these toxins from food.
Antioxidants such as vitamins A, E, C, NAC, rosmarinic acid, and liposomal glutathione alone or in combination have been shown to mitigate the oxidative effects of the toxin. Bentonite or zeolite clay is reported to reduce the absorption of multiple mycotoxins found in food, including OTA. Studies have also shown that OTA is present in sweat, which supports the use of sauna as a treatment to increase the excretion of OTA. (PMID 17195275, 16621780, 16293235, 27521635, 22069626,24792326, 22253638, 16140385, 2467220, 16844142, 19148691, 22069658, 16019795, 18286403, 15781206, 11439224,
17092826, 32710148)
Posted 10/30/2019 12:30 PM (GMT 0)
I had high levels of OTA mycotoxin and was adivised to take mucuna supreme for low dopamin levels, as its very common to get that from mold. Never did any tests for dopamin.
Posted 10/30/2019 12:40 PM (GMT 0)
Interesting. How do you bind OTA?
Posted 10/30/2019 12:47 PM (GMT 0)
OTA is best bound by CSM and also activated charcoal.
Posted 11/2/2019 4:15 AM (GMT 0)
Aerose91 I apologize, I forgot about this thread.

I was on Ritalin right before Lyme.

I had a lot of difficulty focusing/possible adhd.

Who knows though, maybe my Lyme had already started.

Then came the Lyme and my fatigue went through the roof.

Which is when I switched to Adderall around that same time.

Adderall helps with the focus and fatigue, but it's not a magic bullet.

Tonight for example I'm so exhausted that I can barely even walk.

I think my adrenals might be crashing.
Posted 11/2/2019 4:15 AM (GMT 0)
Careful with activated charcoal. It binds to everything and flushes it out, including prescription medications.
Posted 11/2/2019 2:46 PM (GMT 0)
God, I wish I could take adderall. The mental energy would be fantastic!
Posted 11/2/2019 6:56 PM (GMT 0)
Aerose,

Have you had an Organics Acid Test (OAT test) from Great Plains lab? If not I would get one. My insurance covered mine. The report gives you a flow chart showing neurotransmitters and shows your results on the flow chart so you can see where your hiccups are.

On mine, it shows I have a problem converting dopamine to norepinephrine. I have high HVA and high HVA to VMA ratio. Here’s what it says:

“High HVA (Marker 33) may result from toxic metal exposure (including lead, aluminum, manganese, and mercury), presumably due to increased release of dopamine from neurons. Heavy metal testing (blood or hair) might be useful to determine if such exposure is significant. Homovanillic acid ( HVA), a dopamine metabolite, is often elevated due to stress-induced catecholamine output from the adrenal gland which depletes vitamin C. Supplementation with vitamin C (ascorbate) may be helpful in such cases.

Elevated HVA may also result from the intake of L-DOPA, dopamine, phenylalanine, or tyrosine. If values are more than double the upper limit of normal, the possibility of catecholamine-secreting tumors can be ruled out by 24- hour VMA and/or HVA testing in urine. Even in this subgroup, the incidence of tumors is extremely rare. High HVA may be associated with Clostridia or toxoplasmosis infection. If HVA is elevated and VMA is normal, avoid supplementation with phenylalanine or tyrosine until Clostridia or toxoplasmosis is treated.”

High HVA/VMA ratio (Marker 35) The most common reason for an elevation of the HVA/VMA ratio is the decreased conversion of dopamine to norepinephrine and epinephrine. The enzyme responsible for this conversion, dopamine betahydroxylase, is copper and vitamin C dependent, so an elevated ratio could be due to deficiencies of these cofactors. Another common factor is inhibition of this enzyme by Clostridia byproducts. A high HPHPA, 4-Cresol, or other elevations of metabolites would be consistent with the latter explanation.“

Microbial byproducts and toxins can block the pathways of neurotransmitters.

I’m glad you posted this, because it caused me to start looking at my OAT test again. That test has gold nuggets waiting to be mined. I wish I understood how to make better use of it.

Post Edited (WalkingbyFaith) : 11/2/2019 12:59:49 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 11/3/2019 1:34 AM (GMT 0)
Aerose - Don't wish you could take Adderall, I've tried it and it made me SUPER on edge. My mind was going a million miles an hour and I was hyper-concentrated on everything but at the same time could not get anything done.
Posted 11/3/2019 10:43 AM (GMT 0)

WalkingbyFaith said...

“High HVA (Marker 33) may result from toxic metal exposure (including lead, aluminum, manganese, and mercury)
Elevated HVA may also result from the intake of L-DOPA, dopamine, phenylalanine, or tyrosine.

High HVA may be associated with Clostridia or toxoplasmosis infection.

Betahydroxylase, is copper and vitamin C dependent, so an elevated ratio could be due to deficiencies of these cofactors.

Researching the biochemistry of Lyme patients has shown me that most of them have elevated phenylalanine, increased Clostridia, and elevated aluminum. Not all, but most. They also have decreased copper land vitamin C levels over time. Anyway I see it, it causes a dysbiosis. Glyphosate can cause the same conditions as well.
Posted 11/3/2019 11:14 AM (GMT 0)
I agree with jb1994. Adderall has a lot of downsides.

Adderall gets a lot of praise because of people taking it just a few times. Which is when it's still euphoric, because there is no tolerance yet.

Then when you're on it for a few weeks it changes. It's still helpful, but in a different way.

A wise man once said, what goes up must come down.
Which is pretty much stimulants in a nutshell.

If you want to sort of experience it, you could (with caution) take a large amount of schisandra extract. It will very effectively increase your dopamine levels for a couple hours. Just be careful and don't overdo it.
It's the closest I came to the Adderall feeling without actually taking it.

I'm actually hoping to stop Adderall when I get rid of Lyme.

Please keep in mind that my number one Lyme symptom is extreme fatigue (and brain fog/no focus at ALL/zero). Without Adderall I would lose my job and be bedridden. I know because I've ran out before. So I do owe it some praise. That said, I can't wait for this Lyme nightmare to be over and be done with it.
Posted 11/3/2019 1:23 PM (GMT 0)
I'm starting disulfiram soon and I'm pretty sure that has some effect on dopamine as well. Maybe that's another reason it helps with addiction. I'm going to hold off on any dopamine agonists until I start that so I'm not mixing anything.
WalkingbyFaith- no I haven't taken the OAT test, a doctor never ordered it for me
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