HealingWell
Search Close Search
☰

Need help severe anxiety crying that won’t stop/page 2 Do LLMDs typically treat it?

Support Forums
>
Lyme Disease
✚ New Topic ✚ Reply
1 2
❬ ❬ Previous Thread |Next Thread ❭ ❭
Posted 11/18/2019 8:33 PM (GMT 0)

Georgia Hunter said...
A word of caution, tyrosine phosphorylated bacterial proteins are involved in disease development of many bacteria like Citrobacter, Helicobacter, Chlamydia, and maybe even the proinflammatory responses to Bartonella.


I'm also super interested in the tyrosine idea. It sounds wonderful. Can you provide some more information on how to take Tyrosine or get it into one's diet? Also, how does one apply the word of warning? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posted 11/18/2019 9:33 PM (GMT 0)
I have been given so much information through this thread. You all are so smart and educated on these things! I have researched for months hours every day about all this and still so much to learn. I won’t address each person separately but please know your information is much appreciated and will be added to my arsenal.

Anyway, let me ask you all this...if your LLMD told you that you would need to see someone locally, psychiatrist and counselor, to address anxiety issues, would you accept that? I got a call back from the dr’s nurse today and she said that. I am not happy at all about that (but I could just be completely stressed too much to be rational right now). I told the nurse that my daughter had zero psychological issues before she was put on thyroid med and this illness struck, and I believe it to be related totally and only to those things (thyroid, hormones, infections etc) She said that if that’s the case, when dr goes over labs and stuff before our appt, she will address that then. Which is fine since we go this Wednesday. BUT, I do not think it was appropriate for her to tell me the anxiety would have to be handled by another doctor! What?! Please advise if my thinking is off on this. I need to be calm and prepared for our appt.
Posted 11/18/2019 10:29 PM (GMT 0)
My initial thought is to remember the "MD" in "LLMD."

That is, she's still a doctor and bound by all the usual rules, regulations, and laws that govern other physicians. So, because she doesn't know the genesis of your daughter's anxiety, the doctor has to offer advice that's prudent and doesn't jeopardize your daughter's safety.

It's the same reason why you were instructed to take your daughter to the Emergency Room, if her symptoms didn't subside or if they worsened.

Try to think about it from the doctor's viewpoint. Even with an in-person exam, a doctor may not determine the cause of a person's symptom. So, trying to diagnose someone remotely is even more problematic. Also, doctors have to follow the "standard of care." Whether we think that's good or bad is a moot point.

Finally, some people dealing with psychological issues may try to harm themselves, so that's another possibility your doctor is obligated to consider. The doctor said she could investigate the anxiety issue, at your daughter's next appointment. Until that time, however, you were given an alternate suggestion for acute care, if needed.

That's how I view it.

Best of luck to your daughter.
Posted 11/19/2019 3:53 AM (GMT 0)
Thank you, Dude. That does make sense. I don’t know what I expected her to do with my phone call today anyway. I guess be more helpful but given that there are many other reasons she may not know about for anxiety, I guess she was just covering her bases.

I am very thankful that we get to see her this week. Hopefully she will have helpful answers.
Posted 11/19/2019 10:29 AM (GMT 0)

Snorkelfish12358 said...

Georgia Hunter said...
A word of caution, tyrosine phosphorylated bacterial proteins are involved in disease development of many bacteria like Citrobacter, Helicobacter, Chlamydia, and maybe even the proinflammatory responses to Bartonella.


I'm also super interested in the tyrosine idea. It sounds wonderful. Can you provide some more information on how to take Tyrosine or get it into one's diet? Also, how does one apply the word of warning? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


This simply means that bacteria use tyrosine to increase their virulence and it makes them stronger and harder to kill. So when we Lyme patients have low tyrosine levels, it could be the body's response to try to inhibit bacterial growth. It is similar to the low magnesium theory and why some physicians say not to supplement because it increases bacterial growth. Seeds and nuts are the best way IMO to increase tyrosine levels. We have to get more fiber.
Posted 11/19/2019 12:03 PM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...
Just wanted to clarify . Valproic acid comes from the herb Valerian.

Valium is benzodiazepine. ( same class as Ativan )

Valproic acid is 2-propyl-valeric acid. It's valeric acid with 3 additional carbon atoms (propyl) attached. Thus valeric + propyl -> valproic acid. It's not the same as valerian.

I would second the suspicions about adrenals and possibly thyroid. Has she tried taking hydrocortisone?
Posted 11/19/2019 5:59 PM (GMT 0)

Blakeleysmom said...


Anyway, let me ask you all this...if your LLMD told you that you would need to see someone locally, psychiatrist and counselor, to address anxiety issues, would you accept that? I got a call back from the dr’s nurse today and she said that. I am not happy at all about that (but I could just be completely stressed too much to be rational right now). I told the nurse that my daughter had zero psychological issues before she was put on thyroid med and this illness struck, and I believe it to be related totally and only to those things (thyroid, hormones, infections etc) She said that if that’s the case, when dr goes over labs and stuff before our appt, she will address that then. Which is fine since we go this Wednesday. BUT, I do not think it was appropriate for her to tell me the anxiety would have to be handled by another doctor! What?! Please advise if my thinking is off on this. I need to be calm and prepared for our appt.


Hmmmm. Lyme disease and mental health is a really difficult issue. I can give you my (unqualified) opinion, hope it will help! I believe that Lyme disease *directly* causes anxiety and depression. Lots of doctors, even one of the LLMDs I have seen, don't seem to understand this, and to be told to see a therapist when you feel like you're dying can be maddening.
This is what I do for myself. First, I address the biochemical issues of anxiety and/or depression in whatever way works--herbs, meds, etc. I am a strong proponent of meds for people who are okay with taking them, administered carefully and under close supervision for safety (psychiatric meds are a Godsend but do carry some risks). My belief is that the anxiety won't go away if it is caused by the biochemistry of Lyme, not until the Lyme itself is resolved. I also believe it is important to have a trustworthy psychiatrist. They should be talking with you about how to keep yourself or your loved one safe when they start new meds, especially if there is a black box warning. They should also be good listeners and respect your and your daughter's opinions and concerns. If they don't do either of these things, I'd be very concerned.
After addressing the biochemistry, then I go for therapy and other mental health techniques. It can help to have someone to just listen, to help you work with the resources you have, to learn some tools to help you feel better.
A word on thyroid and hormones, I've not had any luck with regular doctors taking care of these. My normal doctors see thyroid or hormones in the "normal" range (hah, normal--more like "I'm not dead" range) and will tell me I'm just fine. My integrative doctors are wonderful; they take care of my issues to get them into a healthy range.
Posted 11/19/2019 6:25 PM (GMT 0)
“ Anyway, let me ask you all this...if your LLMD told you that you would need to see someone locally, psychiatrist and counselor, to address anxiety issues, would you accept that? I got a call back from the dr’s nurse today and she said that. I am not happy at all about that (but I could just be completely stressed too much to be rational right now). I told the nurse that my daughter had zero psychological issues before she was put on thyroid med and this illness struck, and I believe it to be related totally and only to those things (thyroid, hormones, infections etc) She said that if that’s the case, when dr goes over labs and stuff before our appt, she will address that then. Which is fine since we go this Wednesday. BUT, I do not think it was appropriate for her to tell me the anxiety would have to be handled by another doctor! What?! Please advise if my thinking is off on this. I need to be calm and prepared for our appt.“

Sometimes we do need to see other docs in addition to our lyme doc. They aren’t experts in everything.
I’ve often mulled over going to a counsellor to deal with the trauma this illness caused.
I wouldn’t expect my LLMD to help with that.

Is she seeing an endo for the thyroid meds?
Posted 11/19/2019 9:26 PM (GMT 0)
Girlie, She is seeing the dr at Holtorf Medical in Atlanta. https://www.holtorfmed.com
Not sure she’s called an endocrinologist but one of their specialties is thyroid.
Anyone have experience with this medical group? They don’t take insurance and seem extremely knowledgeable about the whole cycle of chronic illnesses. I think we maybe going too long between appts right now.

I guess I had not thought of breaking this apart and seeing different doctors but that does make sense. We were not doctor people before this so I guess I was assuming a Lyme doctor would know about everything Lyme causes. 🤦‍♀️ We are learning!

The biochemistry effects of this disease is shocking. I was hoping (expecting) that all these other body system involvements would resolve with the clearing of the infections. I am unfortunately seeing that I may be wrong. But, after being told at UAB cardiology that her heart is perfect and no issues (though racing heart and syncope), told by neuro opthomolgy that no physical reason can be found for her constant double vision, told by every doctor we have seen that there’s nothing wrong...I assumed when Lyme clears, we all go back to happy normalcy! Woah, what a journey...
Posted 11/19/2019 9:34 PM (GMT 0)
Lyme is a HUGE learning curve.

I still see my regular dr for all non lyme stuff and she has been great for ordering any scans, bloodwork that my lyme doc suggests/wants.

But it is a different scenario for me - due to the fact I live in Canada and my lyme Doc is in the U.S.
Posted 11/19/2019 9:47 PM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...
Lyme is a HUGE learning curve.

It's not unlike the parable of "The Blind Men and the Elephant."

A group of blind men heard that a strange animal, called an elephant, had been brought to the town, but none of them were aware of its shape and form. Out of curiosity, they said: "We must inspect and know it by touch, of which we are capable". So, they sought it out, and when they found it they groped about it. In the case of the first person, whose hand landed on the trunk, said "This being is like a thick snake". For another one whose hand reached its ear, it seemed like a kind of fan. As for another person, whose hand was upon its leg, said, the elephant is a pillar like a tree-trunk. The blind man who placed his hand upon its side said the elephant, "is a wall". Another who felt its tail, described it as a rope. The last felt its tusk, stating the elephant is that which is hard, smooth and like a spear.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/blind_men_and_an_elephant#the_parable
Posted 11/19/2019 9:54 PM (GMT 0)
Racing heart and syncope sounds like POTS - postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome. Does her heart race when standing, but go back to normal lying down? Worth looking into. POTS isn't usually dangerous (it affects the heart's behavior, but is neurological, so her heart would be fine) but it can be very disabling. Sometimes it's easily treated.

Regarding the anxiety, I do understand your initial reaction. I would have said the same early on in my illness, but for what it's worth, I'll share how my thinking has evolved. (Your perspective might vary!)

Much like with pain, anxiety is absolutely horrible for the system, regardless of the cause. You probably are right that it's entirely Lyme-related and will resolve as the disease resolves, but it's a variable you can remove that will make those resolutions come faster. The physical and psychological are not separate spheres. Anxiety depletes the adrenal system, creates neural pathways that perpetuate symptoms, interferes with all types of hormone production, and interferes with digestions and gut health, affects the microbiome and immune system hugely, etc. If you can take the edge off with therapy, herbs, or meds to treat anxiety, then that should be considered as a way to ease the burden on your body.

This illness is a trauma. Many of us end up with PTSD from it. Anything we can to to treat that or prevent it is a good thing for our overall healing.

That said, finding a good therapist is another issue.... Some have good luck using the search filters on the Psychology Today search database, but word of mouth seems to be the best way to find a good one. Reject any stigma you may feel about this. (I know how hard that is!) If you are considering meds, then I recommend a psychopharmacologist to prescribe, and a mental health counselor for therapy. A PCP or even an urgent care doc might be able to prescribe a low dose of a benzo until you find someone to consult with in more detail.

And also, you say you have so much to learn. We all do! smile You are being such a rockstar parent, and I know that has to be enormously stressful for you. I hope you have support as you deal with all of this madness.
✚ New Topic ✚ Reply
12