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Proof chronic lyme is just autoimmune

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Posted 12/12/2019 2:07 PM (GMT 0)
Charlie, buddy, you're completely missing the point, and you're the one who has a "predated" thought process. Kill the pathogen and everything will be fine is the thought process that has been around since the beginning, and its that thought process that got us where w are, w/ an epidemic of sick people in the millions and a medical community at war with each other. Those of us looking at the immune system as the cause of the symptoms are the ones moving this forward.
Posted 12/12/2019 4:22 PM (GMT 0)
for the record Phillips doesnt use rife with patients, but as he had bart himself he tried many different treatments, and is one of the most open minded doctors you could imagine...doesnt subscribe solely to textbook dogma, but works in conjunction w embers, zhang, spector....he told me that some patients that he was able to get back to 90-95% were able to keep their gains and stay in remission (and improve more in some cases) with use of rife...but his practice doesnt use it
Posted 12/12/2019 4:52 PM (GMT 0)
Quin said - "I have no symptoms of Hashimoto's thyroiditis, type 1 diabetes, vitiligo, or any other autoimmune disease.

I do have Lyme disease. Blood tests found antibodies and borrelia burgdorferi DNA.

If my illness was just caused by autoimmune disease, I wouldn't get Herxheimer reactions from antibiotics killing bacteria."

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But the whole subject of autoimmune , by definition, is more complicated than that. It has no boundries.

When people think of autoimmune with boundaries they are thinking of the well known antibody defined autoimmune"diseases"- like hashi, celiac, RA ect.

So you might have and prob do have some AI going on, which does not have a category-.... yet.

The reason I dont take sides with with argument is because there is NO reason you cannot have both going on.

One examople: Vitaligo de-pigmentation......is only thought to be autoimmune, as there is no direct antibody found (yet). So by technical definition, it is NOT an AI issue, but it probably is.

On the opposite end..........ANA antibody..........many AI conditions can set this one off. Its like a roller coaster in many people.
Posted 12/12/2019 5:02 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks astroman, this are my thoughts exactly on AI! These people just dont get it. They cant get past a bug bit me, its the bug, and thats the end of the story.

I dont even think i'm taking a side. I admitted there is a place for antibiotics and the like ( I myself tried buhner, I'm on bicillin. I tried ozone). My original post referred to chronic, antibiotic resistant lyme! My point was in those cases, its the immune system that is stuck on overdrive. You probably have very little lyme left at that point (so little lyme that study after study has shown in most cases its not even detectable with current methods). It makes no sense that a minute amount of bacteria can cause monster symptoms like these, unless the immune system is involved. Sure if you can kill every last spirochete, you'd have a better chance of resolving your symptoms, but A.) the lyme is resistant as both sides seem to agree and B.) even if you killed every last spirochete, you'd still be symptomatic until you fixed your immune system. So why when I suggest focusing on the immune system, which is whats actually causing the symptoms, is this such a big deal? Small, very simple, very tiny, pea sized minds. Its so obvious, yet people get so upset and will fight you to the end.

Post Edited (dcd2103) : 12/12/2019 10:07:25 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 12/12/2019 5:19 PM (GMT 0)
At the very least, the very least, we should all be able to agree that its the immune system which is causing the symptoms? Its the INFLAMMATION. It triggers a response from your body, which causes inflammation, and thats why you feel bad. If you cant agree on this, you dont understand biology.

So....if we can all agree on this, then at the end of the day, there HAS to be a place for immune modulation in your treatment regimen. QED.

Post Edited (dcd2103) : 12/12/2019 10:47:12 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 12/12/2019 5:19 PM (GMT 0)
dcd2103 - you post title sounds one sided with the "just" in it. This is whats aggravating some people.

Perhaps a different post title is justified.

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Notice I repeatedly mention im NOT one sided with this, but some wont read into what im saying and fail to understand. No reason it cant be both, and prob is. The stage your at can change into AI, or both. Or possibly just AI after all the treatment is done. Again, I say possibly, it depends on the individual.

------------------------------

This is different than acute lyme which for a few weeks then cured.- And yes that is more normal than the chronic variety, and does happen. BUT, as we know, sometimes its not cured and turns into chronic lyme possibly with AI ratcheting up the process.
Posted 12/12/2019 5:30 PM (GMT 0)
Thank you astroman. Maybe thats the reason, good to hear how its perceived by others.
Posted 12/12/2019 6:10 PM (GMT 0)

dcd2103 said...
Charlie, buddy, you're completely missing the point, and you're the one who has a "predated" thought process. Kill the pathogen and everything will be fine is the thought process that has been around since the beginning, and its that thought process that got us where w are, w/ an epidemic of sick people in the millions and a medical community at war with each other. .


Not diagnosing in a timely manner PLUS inadequate treatment got us where we are. (ie a few days of doxycycline )
Posted 12/12/2019 7:20 PM (GMT 0)
Here is a great question..............why does Dapsone work so well? The short answer is because it kills the pathogens that are causing the problems. It's not just the spirochetes, it's the gram positive and gram negative bacteria that have increased in numbers to the point that they are pathogenic. Lactobacillus is even pathogenic at some point and it is the key to our GI health. The barrier of our GI tract is so important to health that when it becomes damaged, the body will go to extreme measures to "right the ship." Systemic ammonia absorption, Lactobacillus in the periphery, and epigenetic shifts are all ways they body tries to correct extreme issues from our GI tract. Chronic Lyme is an extreme issue from our GI tract. Bacteria cannot be allowed to culture in the blood because that is sepsis and often fatal. Changes in pH from the cytokine cascade cause pH issues that must be addressed. Addressing it causes problems but the problems are better than the alternative.
Posted 12/12/2019 7:21 PM (GMT 0)

dcd2103 said...
At the very least, the very least, we should all be able to agree that its the immune system which is causing the symptoms? Its the INFLAMMATION. It triggers a response from your body, which causes inflammation, and thats why you feel bad. If you cant agree on this, you dont understand biology.

So....if we can all agree on this, then at the end of the day, there HAS to be a place for immune modulation in your treatment regimen. QED.

I think this is the idea that Dr. TV in HI talks about (inflammation causing symptoms), hence his treatment Low Dose Immunotherapy. I tried it and because of my experience would not recommend it for people with active infections though it may be useful in some cases. My first dose was Lyme Mix and LDA (Low Dose Allergen). My stiff neck started loosening in three days, my nerve symptoms and smell intolerance decreased over a period of about a month but then it all came back and WORSE. Smell intolerance was worse. I had new symptoms like tightness on sides of head and energy draining out of arm. I kept trying with the treatment but other than a small improvement with one other dose, there was no success. I continued to decline. Even tried mycoplasma, strep, and yeast and continued trying the LDA. The first doctor I worked with (LDI) before Dr. TV talked down ABX and made it sound like it wasn't worth a try. I disagree now.

Please note that LDI may help some. I'm just giving my experience.
Posted 12/12/2019 7:27 PM (GMT 0)
LDI was quite popular several years ago - the results weren’t that great - not many here on the forum stated they had some improvement - don’t recall anyone getting well on it - some were consulting with TV - others not.

I had the syringes in my fridge ready to go - but decided not to do it.
Posted 12/12/2019 7:30 PM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...
LDI was quite popular several years ago - the results weren’t that great - not many here on the forum stated they had some improvement but don’t recall anyone getting well on it - some were consulting with TV - others not.

I thought I had read or heard that it wasn't turning out to be very successful. I tried it in 2017.
Posted 12/12/2019 7:41 PM (GMT 0)
I can imagine introducing low doses of an allergen would cause a flare, and if the theory that tolerance eventually develops doesn’t pan out...then it’s not surprising it would make you worse.

I will stick to my IVIG, going to add adaptogenic herbs, but if I’m not better in a year I’m going to see if I can go the biologic route. I’m apartment bound and everything I do seems to cause a flare.
Posted 12/12/2019 7:50 PM (GMT 0)

dcd2103 said...
I can imagine introducing low doses of an allergen would cause a flare, and if the theory that tolerance eventually develops doesn’t pan out...then it’s not surprising it would make you worse.

I will stick to my IVIG, going to add adaptogenic herbs, but if I’m not better in a year I’m going to see if I can go the biologic route. I’m apartment bound and everything I do seems to cause a flare.

It’s different than lda for allergies -I believe it’s minute doses of the bacteria(s)

I know several people who do the lda for their allergies and it’s been successful (this was years before I had lyme)
I think forum member K07 tried the LDI
Posted 12/12/2019 7:55 PM (GMT 0)
Yeah - I would flare on Ldi - but not to the lyme mix. I flared with the environmental & chemical ldi. Lyme ldi had no effect (positive or negative). I don’t think borrelia is my issue.

So let’s talk herbals that may help. I’ve read berberine but i can’t take it. I get super numb when i sleep with it. Same with ldn. Strange but they increase symptoms for me. I’m sure there’s an explanation why but never found it.

Post Edited (k07) : 12/12/2019 1:00:21 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 12/12/2019 7:56 PM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...

dcd2103 said...
I can imagine introducing low doses of an allergen would cause a flare, and if the theory that tolerance eventually develops doesn’t pan out...then it’s not surprising it would make you worse.

I will stick to my IVIG, going to add adaptogenic herbs, but if I’m not better in a year I’m going to see if I can go the biologic route. I’m apartment bound and everything I do seems to cause a flare.

Girlie said...
It’s different than lda for allergies -I believe it’s minute doses of the bacteria(s)

I know several people who do the lda for their allergies and it’s been successful (this was years before I had lyme)
I think forum member K07 tried the LDI

Yes, I had both LDA and LDI (LDI being minute doses of bacteria).
Posted 12/12/2019 7:57 PM (GMT 0)
K07, heading out now but can talk later about herbs. But short answer on the flares is, as anyone with an AI issue will tell you, almost anything that stimulates or modulates the immune system can cause a flare. Remember, its on high alert. This is why things like inflammatory foods, antibiotics, flu shots, etc. Have heard this w/ LDN too, although most people report htye initially get over that stage and it helps.
Posted 12/12/2019 7:59 PM (GMT 0)

k07 said...
Yeah - I would flare on Ldi - but not to the lyme mix. I flared with the environmental & chemical ldi.

So let’s talk herbals that may help. I’ve read berberine but i can’t take it. I get super numb when i sleep with it. Same with ldn. Strange but they increase symptoms for me. I’m sure there’s an explanation why but never found it.

I think LDA was chemical, outdoor allergens, foods, etc. I think LDI was only bacteria.

I believe Japanese Knotweed is an immune-modulating herb.
Posted 12/12/2019 8:03 PM (GMT 0)

dcd2103 said...
K07, heading out now but can talk later about herbs. But short answer on the flares is, as anyone with an AI issue will tell you, almost anything that stimulates or modulates the immune system can cause a flare. Remember, its on high alert. This is why things like inflammatory foods, antibiotics, flu shots, etc. Have heard this w/ LDN too, although most people report htye initially get over that stage and it helps.

Maybe i needed to stick with ldn longer. I know i have autoimmune issue (pos ana & rheum fac). I guess the trick is finding the modulator that works for you.
Posted 12/12/2019 8:05 PM (GMT 0)
Regarding the LDI and my response to the Lyme Mix (had LDA also but not sure if ever had a response to that). Can't really say for sure that I flared any before my symptoms began to improve after that first dose (LDI). I felt like the treatment allowed my body to tolerate the bacteria but that perhaps the bacteria was advancing while my immune system was "tolerating" it. When a treatment wears off, you're supposed to be able to take that same dose again with hopefully a longer affect. It didn't happen for me. My symptoms were worse when it wore off, and I never recovered back to where I was before I tried the treatment. I guess I'll never know exactly what happened or what did what.
Posted 12/12/2019 8:09 PM (GMT 0)

dcd2103 said...
K07, heading out now but can talk later about herbs. But short answer on the flares is, as anyone with an AI issue will tell you, almost anything that stimulates or modulates the immune system can cause a flare. Remember, its on high alert. This is why things like inflammatory foods, antibiotics, flu shots, etc. Have heard this w/ LDN too, although most people report htye initially get over that stage and it helps.

k07 said...
Maybe i needed to stick with ldn longer. I know i have autoimmune issue (pos ana & rheum fac). I guess the trick is finding the modulator that works for you.

Dose seems to be very important also.
Posted 12/12/2019 8:13 PM (GMT 0)
I havent read the whole thread but Im treating for the moment without taking any herbs or abx that kills.
After starting dnrs for the limbic system I started getting better and I think the immune system stopped being in constant fight or flight and was able to kill by it self.

I use low laser therapy, dnrs, exercise, yoga, mediation etc. But also binders, Milk thistle and other supporting supplements.

I would like to take things for mold and lyme again but in my case I get more toxins then I can handle already, as I have to study and work also.
Posted 12/12/2019 8:19 PM (GMT 0)
I have to totally disagree with you based on my experience. At one point I was leaning towards your thought process, when I was struggling with treatment and regressing, but then I tried Disulfiram. Before Disulfiram I had been on antibiotics (oral) off and on for over 3 years. I also did 8 months of herbals in there somewhere. Before I started Disulfiram I was on antibiotics. They weren't really making me herx. I was regressing badly. Most days confined to house in a life of misery. I started Disulfiram in July. I immediately herxed the worst herx I've ever had. I quit and got back on Disulfiram three times from July to October. It made me MISERABLE with herxing. I was really in a tough place mentally. Towards the middle of October I started feeling better for longer and longer periods. In early November I went to my LLMD and we started the Horowitz protocol which is aggresive....low and slow DSF, Rifampin, Doxy, and I add in Azithromycin every so often. I feel TERRIFIC ( compared to where I was). I still have some symptoms, but I'm getting my life back.

For me, it's easy to see. Traditional therapies (abx) weren't reaching the persister bacteria. I added DSF and I started hitting all the stuff that was making me ill. The outcome is that I have made my way back into the gym where I am performing intense workouts with heavy weights for an hour at a time (which I believe has a snowball effect when taking antimicrobials simultaneously). I'm enjoying being able to do more active stuff with my wife, family, and friends. I'm finally able to start looking at going back to work.

This clearly shows me that active bugs were and are my issue. Now, in the name of full transparency, I still do have some symptoms. Inflammation still does run amok at times. I notice what I eat still matters. If I eat an inflammatory meal the symptoms come rushing back (I doubt that will ever change). Same goes for sleep. There are triggers.

I can agree that perhaps Lyme/Bart has changed my immune system, and I will be more sensitive than the average person to things that promote inflammation. However, based off my experience, killing bugs is the only way to get quality of life back. I've tried many other things. Fasting, diet, adaptogens, lower stress, exercise, etc. All these things help, and are very necessary to day to day quality of life, but none of them ever came come to fixing me like DSF is.
Posted 12/12/2019 9:15 PM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...

dcd2103 said...
Charlie, buddy, you're completely missing the point, and you're the one who has a "predated" thought process. Kill the pathogen and everything will be fine is the thought process that has been around since the beginning, and its that thought process that got us where w are, w/ an epidemic of sick people in the millions and a medical community at war with each other. .


Not diagnosing in a timely manner PLUS inadequate treatment got us where we are. (ie a few days of doxycycline )

I agree that mine is almost solely autoimmune but I also strongly agree with this. Toxins and infections trigger that AI process if left untreated too long and at that point just treating infections is no longer enough
Posted 12/12/2019 10:19 PM (GMT 0)
The thing about DSF though is that no one really knows or understand how or why it works
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