Lumbrokinase

Interesting. I'm in the same group as you - I don't herx easily from antibiotics or herbs. In fact - I never herxed from antibiotics - they always provided smaller or larger relief from symptoms. Perhaps in my case they had more anti-inflammatory effect than purely antimicrobial. I've noticed even herbs that usually make people bed-bound like japanese knotweed, houttuynia or cryptolepis - didn't cause a herx. Instead, knotweed helped improve the symptoms a lot. I even got to 100 drops of cryptolepis a day at some point in time - no herx.

I've tried lumbrokinase + bromelain + papain + serrapeptase combo - I'm still on it for the past 2-3 weeks and so far nothing happened. I'll stay on it for another month and see if they trigger anything.

For me the only thing that caused a life threatening herx was oregano oil. In theory it should be a biofilm buster so one could say - it popped up some biofilms. Although I've been on unusually high doses of nutramedix stevia, lumbrokinase, nattokinase, bromelain, papain, serrapeptase and they didn't trigger it. I've even tried 3 x 200mg of Doxy per day combined with Cefuroxime 2x 500mg along all the Buhner Borrelia + Bartonella + Babesia herbs combined - no herx. Sometimes I wonder if there's yet another "Swiss agent" pathogen that hasn't been discovered playing a role here.

Actually - small correction: artemisinin / artemisia annua extract 3500 mg / day triggered a lot of neuropathies in my head. I felt strange tingling on top of my head - as if I had worms moving somewhere between right under my skin and under the skull. Was hard to tell. It would happen for 2-3 seconds, then calm down for 2-3 seconds. On and off for the entire evening and night. I went off artemisinin and it took 1-2 weeks to go away.

Post Edited (wladek83) : 11/14/2021 6:17:49 AM (GMT-7)

useful Townsend letter on lumbrokinase

https://www.townsendletter.com/may2018/lumbrokinase0518_2.html

it had a reference to a table comparing the relative strength of the fibrinolytic enzymes

https://www.townsendletter.com/may2018/lumbrokinasefig2_0518.pdf

How are your lumbrokinase experiments going Rainy?

Garzie said...
How are your lumbrokinase experiments going Rainy?

Hi Garzie!

Thank you so much for asking.

I took a break from Lumbrokinase for a little bit. I thought what you said about becoming stable on antibiotics first made a lot of sense. What I noticed during that small break is that many of my herx symptoms disappeared.

Trying to confirm my suspicion, I took Lumbrokinase again about 9 hours ago to see what happens. A few hours later my entire body started aching again. It's strange because aching and pain usually isn't really a symptom of mine.

I'm also on Bactrim and went from 1 pill to 0.5 pill per day for the past 4 days. However, I don't think that is what's making a big difference in herxes. I think it's the Lumbrokinase that's the heavy hitter here.

So at this point I guess I'm kind of debating what to do next.

I've been reevaluating a lot about my understanding of Lyme/Bart in general. I think breaking up biofilms etc. are a lot more important than I first thought. At least it appears to be that case for me, maybe everyone has their own different make-up of how Lyme and co-infections present/hide themselves in the body.

The strange thing is, I was on Flagyl many years I go, which I guess is the rx biofilm buster some LLMD's use. But it did nothing for me.

I had almost kind of given up on supplements but then Lumbrokinase came around and it's like this bulldozer that appears to just destroy these biofilms.

I think my options are:

1. Keep taking lumbrokinase with 0.5 bactrim and push through it for a bit until I become stable, then go up on the bactrim.
2. Back off the lumbrokinase and go from 0.5 pill bactrim to 1 pill bactrim.
3. Back off the lumbrokinase and stay on 0.5 pill bactrim for a while.

I don't think 3 will help because I feel like nothing is really happening when I do that. Which has been my experience with a lot of antibiotics. So that leaves option 1 and 2. Hmm 🤔.

So yeah, all in all I'm really happy with Lumbrokinase and think it will be a huge part of my treatment. Not sure if I mentioned this but the Doctor's Best brand is the one I'm using and it's a lot more affordable. Seems to be working very effectively.

I buy it from iherb.com and they ship to your country if you are ever looking for a place to buy.

Are you making progress with the Bromelain?

That interesting Rainy.

I am having very similar experiences with adding the bromelain.
Definite increased herx at 1 x 3000gdu capsule every other day - with bart herbs and MB every day.
Just about to try going for 1 cap every day.

I opted for this over other biofilm busters as its active for fibrin - ( lumbrokinase is also but stronger ) which bart causes and is what i most suspect was the majority of the biofilm like substance found in my blood smear slides.
Want to try lumbrokinase later and will use the drs best brand.
Good to have your recommendation.
But will work up to 4-6 bromelain a day first.

I think to get stable on the abx 1st is a good plan.

I thought flagyl was regarded as a borrelia cyst buster - rather than biofilm. But perhaps it is both.

Wishing you success tolerating the regime
But don't worry too much if you have to modulate it or take breaks. Its a long game.

Keep me / us posted

if you can tolerate lumbrokinase with manageable herx like reactions i would stick to that Rainy

it does what bromelain does - but is stronger

you can always try adding or cycling other biofilm agents later - maybe if / when you no longer react to lumbrokinase - but for now i would keep it simple and just modulate as needed to keep treatment manageable

i notice Dr J - who is a big proponent on biofilm agents only treats with them typically 7 days per month cycle - but always with abx to kill bacteria that are released

so it seems to be OK to take breaks

all the best

Easily done.

I have done similar myself

Good luck Rainy

At least you know any adverse effects will be temporary.

In the past when i am taking alot of different things on a schedule through the day i have written a schedule down
Put it inside a plastic envelope thing and stuck that on the inside of the door of the cupboard with all my potions in. Then just marked them off with a dry wipe marker as i go.

It helped till everything became routine

here's something you will be interested in i think Rainy

one of our other members has a web page with some interesting links on biofilm

https://www.neuroborreliosis.com/biofilms/

in the videos there are interviews with the highly regarded Pathologist and lyme researcher Alan MacDonald - in them he goes on to describe the workings of bacterial biofilms in lyme infections and he states categorically that borrelial biofilms are multi-species biofilms - harbouring many different species of bacteria as the norm.

i have heard this suggested before - but more as a theory or concept - but this is not hearsay or theory - as i understand it he is reporting on what he has seen and demonstrated under the microscope

this is significant to me as it means anyone with lyme has biofilms with multiple species in them - and that is important as different species will add their own extracellular matrix to the biofilm and that may mean more than one biofilm degrading agent may be needed to help break them down
borrelia make mainly peptidoglycans i think, other bacteria make lipopolysaccharides and other things

i thought i would pass it on as - although in my case i believe fibrin is a big part of it - likely due to Bart - by definition there will be other things in the biofilm - and it might be wise to add other biofilm agents into the protocol at some stage - ( when others are stable and tolerated ) but aimed at other components of the biofilm- eg xylitol for the glycans and polysaccharides - and lactoferrin for the metal ions

at least this is my though process at the moment

glad you got something out of that Rainy

i find it fascinating also

regarding the fibrin deposits - as i understand it, the real experts that have been studying bartonella for 30 years like Ed Breischwertds - don't think bartonella makes biofilm itself

however - what they do find is lots and lots of fibrin deposits in people with bartonella - the fibrin is a part of the human clotting system and is normally used to help stop blood loss and repair wounds etc.

it seems in bartonella infections - the bacteria have found a way to stimulate the host to make lots of fibrin ( a sticky gel like substance made of proteins and water ) - so much so that it partially blocks all the tiny blood vessels supplying our tissues with much needed oxygen and nutrients - and this is partly what is driving many of the bartonella infection symptoms

there is a great slide on this in Dr M's understanding bartonella video at Galaxy ( we had a post discussing this recently)

since the bartonella live in the cells lining blood vessels - this layer of fibrin would protect them from antibodies and from the activities of white blood cells which would otherwise try to kill and consume the infected cells and rid the body of the bartonella infection - so in this respect it serves the same purpose as a biofilm - without the need for the bacteria to make it themselves.

this actually fits with bartonella's general strategy - where it has lost much of its genome - instead relying on the chemistry of its host to supply those things.

so bart don't seem to make biofilm themselves but cause the body to make a different sticky substance that may serve similar purposes

we should also remember however that all natural biofilms are multi-species colonies - and as such bartonella can likely inhabit biofilms formed by other microbes

btw i am just watching the Bill Costerton videos which are also excellent

hi Rainy

increased aches and pains are it seems a common sign in the middle stages of bartonella treatment

funny you should mention them as i have been experiencing increased all over body aches and especially in my back and shoulders in the last 2 weeks - after just over a month of bromelain added to my already pretty hefty mainly herbal and MB based bartonella antimicrobials

DR M describes exactly thsi uptick in "profound Arthralgia in his patient population as a regular and predictable phase of the treatment.

his preferences first clarithro for a month - then clarithro and rifampin for a month - then double the dose in month 3 and ongoing. i think says this "profound arthralgia" reliably sets in within 4 weeks of the rifampin and clarithro. he says he thinks this arthralgia is caused by Immune complexes - by which i think he means some form of precipitation of immune system chemicals as high loads of bacteria are killed.
i think he talks about it in the galaxy "understanding bartonella" video

my guess is this same phenomenon could well happen with other effective antimicrobial regimes - just perhaps to different degrees or on different schedules. at least those are my thoughts at the moment.

i am trying to go with it at the moment if possible - as i am also seeing other signs that are encouraging at the same time - like slightly increased function in the day - so overall i don't think i am spiralling down and should re-think - but its a finely balanced thing

if i do a workout or a v hot bath that can tip it over into a worse day - so i am trying to gauge my limit and work within them with both treatment and exertion

hope i am on the right track - and the above is of some help

all the best!

Hi Garzie and WBF 🙂

Thank you both for the replies.

Garzie: Wow haha, seems like we're on the same schedule because it actually started for me about 2-3 weeks ago too. And yes, I had not described the aching in my previous comment (only the pain) but the aching for me is actually in the very a similar area (shoulders and neck). I keep doing these weird movements hoping something will "pop" back in place, but it's not happening. I'm not even one of those people who ever "pops" their bones, but for some reason out of desperation I'm trying to pop my back/shoulders/neck without success. I keep stretching too, with no relief.

Thank you for your description about Arthralgia, I had actually never heard of that word before. Will keep it in mind for crossword puzzles 😀.

I definitely think you're on the right track. I've been wondering about how you're doing lately, I know you were concerned about your skin issues getting worse, but I'm really convinced it's just a part of treatment. You've come so far already, so you're definitely on the right track.

Thank you for the rest of your reply too, very helpful.

WalkingbyFaith: Sorry to hear muscle and joint pain are your primary symptoms. That must be really difficult. Yes, I'm grateful in a sense I don't have those symptoms when I'm not treating. Although my other symptoms are pretty severe so I guess that's not ideal either.

I would be interested to hear how your Bolouke expirement will go. My advice would be to go really slow, it's very strong. I'm still only taking 1 capsule and the bottle says to take 2. I did 2 the very first time and it was a pretty awful experience.

Hi Garzie, just saw your post in the other thread. Just wanted to say that I hope it goes really well for you with the Lumbrokinase.