Disulfiram Hyperthermia Treatment (or with Abx/Herbs)

RainyCloud,

I am currently on Disulfiram myself and coincidentally have experimented with sauana therapy while on this particular medication. I was taking Disulfiram at about 62.5mg per day when I decided to get in the sauna at 180 degrees for 20 minutes.

I've never herxed so bad in my life: to the point of experiencing trembling, sweating, and the chills. The entire herx lasted approximately 4-hours, where I was in a semi-conscious state of awareness. I also began to experience extreme neuro-herxing, which I can best describe as pulsating waves in my vision. I cannot say that I noticed much symptom improvement though, however I only did this one time and was not brave enough to attempt it again.

For me personally, I believe in the low-and-slow approach. I've done the shotgun approach many times with various treatments. While the herxes are always extreme, the symptoms resolution I am hoping for does not follow suit. Based on my experience, treatment is just a slow process and the degree of herxing does not directly correlate to symptom resolution. Based on my recovery from a severe case of neurological Lyme disease, it takes 1-year of treatment for every year of undiagnosed illness to recovery. At least, this is the pace I have been consistently improving at.

Definitely seems like an interesting study and there is a synergy between heat and disulfiram, as confirmed by my personal experience combining the two.

Hi futbalplayer and Garzie,

Thank you both so much for your replies, it's very helpful.

futbolplayer your own experience is very fascinating to me. One of my follow up questions was actually going to be if a similar effect could be achieved with a sauna. Sounds like it definitely does. That's true also about going slow and low, it's so easy for me to forget about that. Maybe it would be easier to manage near the end of a treatment. I'm glad you're ok after your experience, it sounds like it was intense.

Garzie yes I've read about those German clinics too. Also very worried about brain damage. The chart is very hard for me to understand but I think what it says is that 39 degrees is the highest they go at the Mexico clinic. I think it's in Celsius so that would be 102.2 degrees Fahrenheit. Also (again, if I'm understanding the chart correctly) the longest they do it for is 30 minutes. Seems more manageable. That also explains why futbalplayer had a similar effect with a sauna.

useful article with some specifics on temperatures and references for the anti-biofilm and immune stimulating effects of hyperthermia
https://www.lymedisease.org/hyperthermia-treatment-lyme/

Hey Garzie,

Thank you for discussing this with me, it's so fascinating and your replies are super helpful.

Garzie said...
"Makes me wonder how hot you can get core body temperature to rise that way."

I'm actually starting to really consider doing this. I have been looking online and you can buy portable infrared saunas. They are about $150. Seems like a small price to pay for a sauna.

I learned there are 2 models.
One where you sit in, like this:
https://ibb.co/fd6pymg

And then there is the one I'm more interested in, where you lay down in a infrared blanket:
https://ibb.co/ggq4bkn

That second one is about $150 also.

It says this:

"Adjust the temperature from 35 degrees Celsius to 75 degrees Celsius through the controller, and the time can be set from 15 to 60 minutes. "

That lymedisease.org article is interesting, and you were so right about this:
"Clinics should attempt to reach 106.9° F (41.6°C), which is the point at which all spirochetes are killed after two hours."

I can't imagine being in that heat for 2 hours. So it makes sense they would make you sleep through it.
I have to spent some time reading the Finish study and fully understanding it. Thank you for that !!

But you're right, seems like this is achievable.

Also, as I don't have any social media, I had to jump through hoops today to get the social media comments of Lyme Mexico on this treatment.

But I finally got the ones they posted on instagram and I thought you might be interested:

"as some patients may know, not everybody responds the same to disulfuram, in addition some patients require to enhance their detox pathways while on it. This study focuses on the detox aspect of hyperthermia as well as increasing the absorption and penetration of disulfuram which in some cases may be more beneficial than the drug by itself."

"every patient is a different case, and we are happy for those that have gotten into remission by disulfuram alone or other treatments such as this one, nevertheless not everyone responds with great results and some cases are much more complex and require a multidisciplinary approach. This is not the only drug we have reported to increase its potency on a mild fever, our goal is to provide all the information available so that such patients which will require more attention can find some answers. The chart clearly states increasing temperature to 39.6 centigrades which is 103 Fahrenheit approximately, no candidate at that temperature has ever featured any side effects, we have however seen an increased detoxification and improvement in the level of absorption and penetration of any drug/antibiotic including disulfiram. The hyperthermia cost is 200 dollars per session, usually patients get 6 sessions, we don’t believe this is an expensive option as you mentioned, when in fact some cases can have a huge difference in their health by combining therapies as we seen in the past."

" red line shows the improvement of symptoms of a patient who did 21 days of disulfiram while taking pulsed mild hyperthermia for 30 minutes periodically to increase the medications perfusion by extending the drugs capacity during it’s plasmatic peak and in addition helping the patient detoxify in a recurrent manner."

"wellbeing symptoms were measured at different times of the treatment and placed on the data collection tool. The data collected was based on the patient’a response as well as clinical signs measured by telemetry monitoring and arranged for graphic representation. Let us know if you are still having trouble understanding any element of this process and we will try our best to help make it clear."

"clinical response was measured throughout an algorithm based on clinical parameters that measured aleatory factors in the patient’s response. The algorithm was based on a number of questions and patient monitorization arranged by number and level of clinical relevance."

This seems like a very dangerous "idea". Id go as far to call it stupid!! There are many folks who had severe psychosis from taking to high a dose of DSF to fast. Or just going up to a high dose that was just to much. In this case you are essentially ramping up the dose very quickly as you heat up. The number of days is very short even if they are graduating you up slowly. No on could afford a slow taper up though.

skinny_joe said...
This seems like a very dangerous "idea". Id go as far to call it stupid!! There are many folks who had severe psychosis from taking to high a dose of DSF to fast. Or just going up to a high dose that was just to much. In this case you are essentially ramping up the dose very quickly as you heat up. The number of days is very short even if they are graduating you up slowly. No on could afford a slow taper up though.

i agree that jumping right in and taking a high dose of say 500mg of disulfiram and adding hyperthermia therapy would be a very high risk activity

but that isn't what is being described here at all - as far as i understand it they are instead using lower doses of disulfiram and gradually increasing core body temp from normal, or even below normal, to mildly elevated gradually over many sessions.

the hyperthermia, as i understand it, increases tissue perfusion of the drug - not necessarily the toxic effects - as the total amount of drug given is not increased.

30minute

Garzie:

Thank you so much Garzie, I didn't know you were that good at math. I'm awful at math myself.

But I do understand the way you explained it. From what I've seen is that the blankets are 650 Watts. So that wouldn't be enough. I would have to check the other models though.

Where I'm currently living there is no bath (just a shower with a drain) so I'm a bit limited in that approach. I think maybe a hot shower might work too?

That's so cool that you made your own infrared sauna.

And yes I'm getting the same idea from the graph: that it's slowly being built up.

It might even be too fast still for my own sake.

I think the obstacle that some of these Lyme clinics face is that patients that stay there expect to feel better when they leave after a few weeks. Which often might not be realistic with an infectious disease like Lyme.

So that might be why they did it in only 21 days, I think. I still think it's really impressive though and I think we can learn a lot from it. I definitely am considering trying it myself. Just a bit slower like you said.

It's fascinating what you said about it working with antibiotics too. I'm going to look into that.

skinny_joe

Hi skinny_joe, I understand your concern and I appreciate you expressing it. However, I think as with all things, you have to look at each patient individually. For me personally, if I decide to try it, I would take it very slowly. And take some additional safety measures like leaving several days in between sessions, making sure I'm not home alone, etc.

But there are also people who can handle disulfiram very easily, so if they are in a clinic and want to do it in 21 days and reach the higher temperatures, I think that as long as the risks are laid out, it isn't always a bad decision.

You have to keep in mind too that Lyme by itself damages the body. Every year that goes by with Lyme is a year that permanent damage can and will often be left behind.

This discussion can also can apply to heating the body in combo with antibiotics, so it's a good discussion to have and explore, in my opinion.

futbolplayer

Hi futbolplayer, I've tried every dosage up to 500mg. I've learned that 250mg is my sweet spot. I totally understand what you're saying about disulfiram. It got me in remission for 3 weeks. I couldn't believe it.
The infection(s) came back though, so maybe this approach of combining it with heat is something for me to explore.
I'm so happy for you that you found something that works for you too!
Just make sure to measure your liver values but it sounds like you are Please keep us posted!

Hey Garzie!

Thank you so much for all the information you provided, and your great insight of course.
I'm still going over a lot of the stuff you posted and am learning a whole lot.
I'm also doing some research myself.
I will post about this soon, still trying to take it all in.

Hi Garzie!

Wow thank you so much for doing that experiment and for sharing it!
I can't believe you were able to tolerate that high of a temperature, that's amazing.

I love how you beat the trial temperatures, go Garzie! (just be careful 😀)

And yes, I share your conclusions, I think this is a very valid approach.

I have a few questions:

Which antimicrobial herbs or antibiotics at the moment are you taking? Is it still the same?
How are you feeling today? (the day after?)

Also I had a thought today and wanted to ask you about it.
How much do you think that timing matters in terms of the time between taking medication/herbs and taking a bath like that?

Like for example, if you take "medication X" which has an half life of 8 hours. Do you think that it matters when during those 8 hours you take the bath?
And if so, do you think we would be able to calculate when a medication would peak in the blood if we have the half-life?

I don't think it matters much with Disulfiram given it's 2 weeks half-life (or something like that), but maybe if we try it with abx and herbs it's something we can look into.

Also quick update: I recently started Bactrim and am in the process of finding a portable sauna or something similar.

Thank you again !!

hi Rainy -
i was OK the next day - possibly a bit more tired than usual - this was common and more noticeable in the past after a v long hot bath - but less pronounced these days as i am partly recovered - so i was at 80-90% of my normal function - just noticed my walk was a fraction slower and my productivity perhaps just a fraction off best - still dealing with the tail end of this bad head cold though so that's also in the mix.

my protocol is pretty extensive and multi modal
i have gradually built it up over time by doing a great deal of careful research and then carefully controlled trials - and then kept the things that seemed to help and built on those with more trials and again kept what helped.

its a lot of different things - and almost seems too much when you see it written down - but this illness is very hard to crack for many - i was fully stuck in very poor shape for at least 3 years - and this general approach has been the thing that has helped me go from non-functional - around 20% of my former capabilities - to somewhere around half way recovered or a little better today and continuing to improve.

the post you link to is just some of the later trials of some small things that i was investigating that might just give me a further little helping hand or small additional step

my main protocol is all the stuff in my signature below
1, wholefoods keto diet
2, exercise
3, focus on sleep
4, Buhner lyme herbs
5, Buhner co infection herbs
6, immune modulation - mainly LDN (3.5mg ) and Ivermectin (12mg each 7 days )
7, Methylene Blue - 130mg / day for Bartonella persisters
8, Thyroid correction for hashimotos - with T3+T4 combination
9, various supporting herbs ( eg adaptogens)
10, selected supplements - mainly anti-oxidants, detoxification vit C, Acetyl-Carnitine, ALA, Taurine, MSM, magnesium citrate, L-Arginine, Vit E, CoQ10

i will list the actual herbs and doses in case its of interest - but they are basically around the max doses advised by Buhner in his books - numbers to the right are dose in ml - 4x per day

Lyme herbs
Chinese Skullcap root - 2
Uncaria Rhynchophylla - 4
Cordyceps Mycelium - 3
Salvia Miltiorrhiza root - 3.8
Uncaria tormentosa bark - 3
Kudzu root - 3
Licorice root – 0.5

bartonella / coinfection herbs
Mahonia 1:5 tincture 2.0 (a berberine containing herb)
Houttuynia 1:5 tincture 2.8
Sida acuta 1:5 tncture 1.0
Teasel root 1:3 tincture 0.8
Alchornea leaf 1:5 tincture 1.2
Cryptolepis root 1:5 tincture 1.0

i wish it wasn't as much stuff - but if that's what works - then that's what i will do.

ref the timing - i did not try to optimise the peak in body temp with peaks of blood levels of the herbs and dugs - MB and Iver are long acting in any case.
as for the herbs, very often little is known - but i split my doses into 4 equal portions spaced out over the day - so i think its fairly constant in my case.

the timing is therefore more what fits with my overall regime - doing hyperthermia therapies in the earlier part of the day would be disruptive for me - as it takes so much time and then cool down and after that i would not be up for anything very active - so for me its much better at the end of the day.
it is not my primary approach - juts another adjunct that could help me on my way.

the sauna sounds like a good piece of equipment - will be interested to hear how you get on.
remember - go easy at first

all the best

Hi Garzie,

I was in a hotel way up north in the arctic circle once. This was in Scandinavia. They had a spa and inside that spa there was a thing called contrast water therapy. Or well, I found out later that's what it's called because I couldn't understand the language lol.

In short, the goal was to jump into ice cold water, then back into hot water and then back into ice cold water again.
The goal being circulation of the blood, or something along those lines. They have some traditions like that up there.

This discussion about hyperthermia made me think of that today. I wonder for example, after doing our hot baths/saunas, if it would in any way be helpful to jump into an ice cold bath or shower after.

Just a thought I had. Probably have to be careful with not stressing the heart too much.

It also made me wonder, as a side note to this experiment, how spirochetes and other bacteria would respond to that. What I mean is, I know spirochetes survive very cold temperatures. And I know know that you need a lot of heat (which you bravely did already) to kill spirochetes. But I wonder how they would respond to "back and forth" between cold and hot. I wonder if that disturbs them in any way or if they just keep adjusting indefinitely.

This is all besides the benefit of increased absorption with the heat of course, which I'm definitely pursuing.

Hi Garzie,

Thank you for another great post.
"Metabolic cost" that's a really good way to put it.

There was a time during my treatment where I had access to a bath and basically unlimited ice. So for a while I took ice baths. However, this was different because I didn't do the hot showers first.

At the time I did a lot of research into it but I forgot most of it. One of the drawbacks I do remember, which is that when you shock your body like that, cortisol spikes. So that is something also to keep in mind.

I think you're so right about the risk/reward profile. For me, although my heart "feels" fine, it might be taking too much of a risk at this point in time (the cold). I don't think I will pursue that.

I will however, do the hyperthermia and look forward to trying it.

I know I just mentioned it already, but the way you put metabolic cost is something that's fascinating to me and I hope researchers will look into that. Maybe it's a solution for some people to simply wear these organisms out to the point of dying, whether that be with contrast water therapy or by other means.

Makes you wonder if some treatments already work by that mechanism that we are unaware of.

Thank you again!