Joining the club - recently diagnosed with metastasized prostate cancer (bones).

I would only say again that 3 months is a long time to have metastasized PC eating away your spine, while you see if the holistic approach can work.

Bengan,

I am so sorry you are here. You are much younger than most, more immediate responsibility (children 13&11) at home and very advanced PC for a newbie. Riviere's (Nellie) posting is dead on - oops bad choice of words- right on target. Your time line for execution of a definitive medical plan is paramount to the quality and quantity of life you have remaining- whether it is months, years or even decades. In the contracting world, a standard phrase is "time is of the essence". The degenerative attack of the disease to your spine must be addressed and "time is of the essence". Without a solid "structural frame", exercise will be limited if not impossible. I encourage you to travel both roads to thwart the impact of the enemy.

Unfortunately it seem I ended up precisely where I did not want to be, in a storm of well meaning but sadly uninformed advice. I understand that many of you have formed opinions and collected experience using conventional medicine but nobody so far has actually had ANY experience with a holistic clinic. They have been around for decades they get better result than conventional in most cases and they don't incur horrible side effects.

I cannot convey the concepts in this manner to a forum who is determined to convince of their own conviction. I urge any of you who visit the forum to look into holistic very carefully (start by reading Suzanne Somers book - Knockout).

Regarding b17, I suggest you read this:
http://rationalargumentator.com/B17Cancer.html

Sometimes, desperate people resort to desperate remedies.  They see people die after being treated with conventional medicine and they don't want that to happen to them, so they look to uncoventional treatments.  Since time immemoriam, there have been peope eager and willing to prey on those looking for a miracle cure. 

I read the citation you offered regarding B17, commonly known as laetrile.  I suggest you take a few minutes to look at this one:  http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/laetrile.html

I am very sorry that you find yourself in such a serious health situation.  It's pretty clear that you are determined to lend no credence to accepted and conventional medicine, and my experience is that people in your frame of mind cannot be reasoned with. 

I actually hope you find your miracle cure, and if you do, I hope you will keep us apprised of your progress.   I'm sorry that we're all so "uninformed." 

I must say, though, that if these holistic clinics were really experiencing that success stories you attribute to them, they'd be front page news all around the world.  I wonder why that's not the case.  Hmmmmm.  A vast medical conspiracy, I guess.

Incidentally, My wife is an R.N. who once worked at one of the Cancer Treatment Centers of America hospitals.  They used DMSO.  They used B-17.  They gave coffee enemas.  They used all sorts of unconventional treatments:  and the patients died.

 

Post Edited (clocknut) : 12/6/2011 9:13:49 PM (GMT-7)

Bengan,

In a moderator role, I tend to try to stay out of discussions. I did edit some comments that were, well, let's just say derisive of your position. I expect the same courtesy from you to respect the honest concerns of those who responded.

Now I'll take off the moderator hat, and speak as the next guy on the forum.

I will say that alternative therapies are poorly represented here, and that could be for any combination of reasons. But you realized that to start. Those who come here do so by choice, and stay by choice.

I lived in Europe for many years, during which time I used a homeopathic doctor who I came to depend on and trust. However, I found that even he, with years of experience and M.D. training, would often tell me that there were many areas where he deferred to traditional medicine. As someone who was "doomed" to certain cancers at an early age by heredity, we talked about that often. He firmly believed that he could help me live better (and he did - by family history I should have passed on many years ago), but he did not expect to cure cancer. That said, I have utmost faith in the things he suggested and prescribed. And I must add that he was supportive of my having surgery.

So, I can share a bit of common experience with you, and I have been an long-time user of a legal and licensed homeopathic clinic. I want you to consider that within our own experience, we (the members of the forum) are offering what we can. Often that has been simple concern for the path of your PCa. We are not doctors, and can not give you professional medical advice.

 

142, with the exception of perhaps one post in this thread, seems pretty even handed considering that bengan came here of his own free will, and posted a very unconventional approach and attitude pertaining to what he has described as a very advanced and serious case of PC. I don't mean to this remark to sound rude, and I mean it in a generic sense, not to any particular poster, including bengan, but if you come into a group, any group, and openly ask for advice, then you will give a diver's manner of advice, from all angles and approaches.

david in sc

At your suggestion, I spent some time reviewing some of the holistic sites. My initial conclusion was :

1. A lot of claims without scientific method to back it up. No double blind studies, trials, etc. Many of the holistic sites are ads for products.

2. Many talk about early, non metastatic cancer, not advanced such as yours.

3. Many also talk about combination therapies or integrative therapies that use convetional and holistic

If you were to review the thousands of posters on HW, you would find very high success rate. We do have many who advocate a holistic approach to living but I do believe you are the first that I have read with advanced metastatic PC, who is attempting to battle it entirely with holistic medicine.

I am literally afraid for you. As we watch the wife of a dear friend of ours battle multiple myeloma in her spine, we know how awful it is. On the other hand we have seen men with PSA's of 3500 drop it to very low numbers, seen tumors dissappear, and watch them go hunting and fishing after HT.

If your fear of impotence or incontinence is the driving force behind your holistic approach, then wait until the side effects of a deteriorated spine catches up to you. I will gladly live with my conventional treatment side effects.

I really do wish you the best. I support what you are attempting to do, and truly hope it is successful. Just be sure and be careful on how much you gamble. Metastasis is an ugly way to die.

Goodlife

142, I hear you, but guess I disagree.

If someone came to the site and said they had been diagnosed with advanced prostate cancer, but had decided to forego conventional treatment and instead were offering novenas to the Blessed Virgin, having prayer services in their home, and were traveling to Lourdes to seek a miracle cure, I wager that person would not only be greeted rudely, but his comments would be stricken from the site as a rule violation.

In its own way, Bengam's approach is based more on "faith" than on "science," yet we try our best to support him while questioning the wisdom of what he's doing.

Bengam is in a very, very serious health situation. He is essentially insisting the we at HW support and reinforce his decision to try to attack advanced, metastatic prostate cancer using treatments that are of extremely dubiious benefit, and he is saying that in our failure to unreservedly support his decisions, we are demonstrating that we are "uninformed."

That puts everyoone in a predicament. If we are unconditionally supportive of an approach that most might consider quackery, what message do we send to newcomers to the site who come here looking for guidance on the best way to attack their cancer?

It's obvious that members here support healthy diets, physical fitness, exercise, and clean living Many are using supplements to complement their medical treatments. Those are elements of Bengam's approach to his cancer that no one has questioned. But, I don't think that we need to or should endorse every unconventional approach out there.

I absolutely support Bengam's right to make whatever personal health decision he chooses. But I also think we have a right, maybe even a duty, to express our personal disbelief in its efficacy.

Hi Bengan,

I think we understand what you're you're seeking. Many of us have gone far into the holistic approach, and have consulted holistic doctors that have given great help. I for some time consulted with Dr. Thomas Cowan of San Fransisco, a well-known holistic M.D. But even his approach ends up being based on faith.

You said:

Bengan said...

So it is not a matter of a "diet" or a specific pill or activity that is used but rather every aspect of your body's function is examined and propped up.
There is tremendous success in holistic treatments of cancer including prostate cancer. There does appear to be quite a bit of polarization however between the two worlds. That is the conventional practitioners seem fairly oblivious to anything holistic or they'll treat it as a "sure you can play around with that stuff if it makes you feel better" type of thing.

There is a vast world of doctors (most started as MDs or oncologists) who treat people successfully (not less successfully than conventional) and with much less side-effects (only positive side effects - more alert, more function, etc) than conventional medicine

That is all well and good. But the problem is, it assumes that someone has a full understanding of "every aspect of your body's function." If people existed with this knowledge, we could throw all our research in the garbage can, and say hallelujah, we've reached the Promised Land. But in fact, human biology is still in its infancy. Researchers are just starting to get into the genetic and cellular mechanisms for many of our bodily functions. Bit by bit, they make proven advances, and increase the knowledge base so others can continue the process. Most holistic doctors not only are not aware of the latest research, they smugly think they understand it all already.

The problem I've found with Dr. Cowan and others is reliance on pseudo-science to fill in the gaps of scientific knowledge. In Dr. Cowan's case it is Rudolf Steiner's Anthroposophy, an esoteric philosophy growing out of European transcendentalism with links to Theosophy. This is faith-based medicine tied to dogma rather than scientific inquiry, and its practice become glorified anecdotal medicine with a halo. I'm not against anecdotal medicine, per se, and some of our best oncologists have no choice but to try things that in their experience produces results. But they're not afraid to subject their practice to scientific testing. Dr. Cowan instead turns to his philosophy book.

And yet I appreciate what folks like Dr. Cowan have done. They are challenging a myopic approach to medicine and bringing in anecdotally successful remedies. But when it comes to treating cancer, they are out of their league. For example, Dr. Cowan advocates mistletoe extract because Rudolf Steiner felt that its biology mimicked cancer. Pardon me for saying hogwash to sympathetic magic.

So I'd be happy to let someone treat the "whole person" once I know someone that is competent to do so. But to make that claim based on the current state of medical knowledge is absurd. Until then, when I'm facing a life-threatening condition such as yours, lead me to the specialist whose practice is based on unbiased scientific studies.

Nellie

I42:

I still maintain I wasn't rude. BLUNT YES, RUDE NO. I called it a "bill of goods"; others called it pseudo-science. Take your pick. The latter implies the former, but is perhaps more politically correct.

A "troll" is someone who posts on a newsgroup merely for the purpose of eliciting responses and not to have a discussion. Now, maybe my characterization was a tad harsh, but the OP made it clear that our responses were unworthy of discussions.

His mind is made up -- I wish him good luck. I did feel he needed a strong response, hopefully to get his attention, given his situation, which could soon be dire.

Mel

 

As I mentioned on my previous post t one of the oldest CAM (complementary and alternative medicine ) or Holistic centers for prostate cancer is the St. George Clinic of Dr. Douwes in Bad Aibling Germany.

As far as i know they only treat Prostate cancer if it has not spread outside the capsule

Because your cancer has spread out of the prostate, I am also very concerned the Holistic approach is much less likely to help you

Hormone therapy is not invasive and has little risk of long term side effect if done for a year or less

Good luck

PS also suggest you Visit Dr. Myers www.Prostateforum.com

Bengan,

I just came back from visiting Dr. Myers. If you would like to discuss anything about what this entails or you just want to talk, please don't hesitate to email me. I'm sorry that you have to deal with this at such a young age.

Hang in there.
Jerry L.